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Another fun GCN retro v. modern video

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Another fun GCN retro v. modern video

Old 03-31-16, 03:24 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by uncle uncle View Post
(...) can't see the non-fixie's video (...)
Sorry about that. Apparently Vimeo isn't supported by some browsers.

Here's a version of the same trailer on YT, but without the English subtitles. The entire film was there too, but has been removed, alas.

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Old 03-31-16, 03:48 PM
  #27  
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Odd how they made such a big deal about it being the actual bike that Delgado rode, maybe they don't know that it isn't? Fun video regardless, thanks for posting it.









edit: Here's a blog on the orbea website celebrating the 30th anniversary of Delgado's win and they have many photos of Delgado with the bike from the video. Maybe Orbea just had a frameset in his size lying around and they cobbled something together for the anniversary.

His victory was quite the achievement but it would have been all the more amazing had he done it on this bike with the low end stuff on it

http://www.orbea.com/gb-en/sites/pedro-delgado/


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Old 03-31-16, 09:27 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
I can't say anything about the particular brake they used, old and crusty or refurbished and perfect. But when compared to a single-pivot long-reach side-pull caliper, dual pivot will require less squeezing force at the lever for the same braking torque, everything else being equal. I am happy to set up that experiment with my bikes.
FIFY!
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Old 03-31-16, 09:32 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
FIFY!
Exactly!
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Old 03-31-16, 09:48 PM
  #30  
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It was entertaining but as usual not a fair or real comparison. One a brand new read to rock and roll CF bike vs a bike pulled from 30 years of storage with rotten tires, hard as granite brake blocks and a nice bloke who apparently thinks friction down tube shifters are from an alien past or another dimension as he flutzes around slapping at them like a bee on his bonnet and then to top it all he has no toe clips and for a hill climb no less. And then remarks that the conclusion is the steel bike is 2 minutes and some odd seconds slower. Like, uh, no, sorry dude, not going to play. I have no doubt the cf bike is faster on a climb with improved stiffness and possibly downhill as well than the old steel frame due to modern rim brakes but it is not that much faster.

Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I think Peter Post still holds the record for the fastest average speed in Paris Roubaix from 1964. The course was a bit different, but still, if the bikes today are so much better, and training and race radios have made racing speeds elevate, why would this record still stand?
I have often wondered the same thing. I am just not buying into the cf is faster than old (or new) steel. The rider makes the larger difference as long as he/she is on a quality machine old or new. It is getting cliche with these silly comparisons. The riders of old covered the same race courses, probably worse and more challenging in many cases, and yet managed to nearly equally or exceed modern times.

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Old 03-31-16, 10:08 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by uncle uncle View Post
... and remember, companies are in the business to sell new equipment, and since the two videos I could see (can't see the non-fixie's video) are produced by companies, of course the new equipment is going to be faster or more aerodynamic.
In the case of GCN, they aren't in the business of selling new equipment. They're a network that dies cycling videos of all aspects of the sport. While some things they do aren't that scientific, it's real world stuff that's fun send entertaining to watch.

On the other hand Specialized does sell new equipment. You would think they would be biased using some of their high tech investment like their own wind tunnel. However some of the results are very objective even when it can be construed as harmful to Soecialized. I'm impressed.
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Old 03-31-16, 10:29 PM
  #32  
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I'm starting to think that if you corrected all the completely botched up parts of these comparisons, the vintage steel bikes might in fact be much faster than the modern carbon wonders. Food for thought anyway!
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Old 03-31-16, 10:58 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by davester View Post
I'm starting to think that if you corrected all the completely botched up parts of these comparisons, the vintage steel bikes might in fact be much faster than the modern carbon wonders. Food for thought anyway!
Well, that's probably a stretch, considering how much money there is in winning; they would quickly find an excuse or cover story for backtracking to older technology, if it were indeed faster. On the other hand, it is totally in their vested interest to spin any discernible difference in performance toward the equipment, rather than the "engine"; and I quite agree, year to year and decade to decade, the biggest differentiation has been among the "engines" and not the equipment.
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Old 04-01-16, 07:27 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
FIFY!
OK. Another experiment. And now you did make it interesting. The new question is can I create enough squeezing force with the single pivots to stop as fast as the dual pivots.

Pretty easy because I do have pressure sensors at work and I can apply them to the rim where the pads come into contact. Finding the maximum force on the wheels will be simple. The hard part will be to determine at what pressure will the wheels lock because that will depend on both pad material and wheel material. Any ideas on the second part? I certainly can equip all calipers with the same pads and used on the same set of rims. But at what force would you lock the rear or do an endo over the front?
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Old 04-01-16, 07:55 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
OK. Another experiment. And now you did make it interesting. The new question is can I create enough squeezing force with the single pivots to stop as fast as the dual pivots.

Pretty easy because I do have pressure sensors at work and I can apply them to the rim where the pads come into contact. Finding the maximum force on the wheels will be simple. The hard part will be to determine at what pressure will the wheels lock because that will depend on both pad material and wheel material. Any ideas on the second part? I certainly can equip all calipers with the same pads and used on the same set of rims. But at what force would you lock the rear or do an endo over the front?
The momentum of the turning rims would need to be in the equation too. Perhaps that is nullified by presuming the same rider, but deceleration from higher speeds, and differences between the weight of the bikes would be a variable.
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Old 04-01-16, 08:00 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
The momentum of the turning rims would need to be in the equation too. Perhaps that is nullified by presuming the same rider, but deceleration from higher speeds, and differences between the weight of the bikes would be a variable.
It will be me, so the momentum will be high.

The problem I see correlating the force on the rim to the force on the levers and then how do I measure the force on the levers when riding?
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Old 04-01-16, 08:41 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
OK. Another experiment. And now you did make it interesting. The new question is can I create enough squeezing force with the single pivots to stop as fast as the dual pivots.

Pretty easy because I do have pressure sensors at work and I can apply them to the rim where the pads come into contact. Finding the maximum force on the wheels will be simple. The hard part will be to determine at what pressure will the wheels lock because that will depend on both pad material and wheel material. Any ideas on the second part? I certainly can equip all calipers with the same pads and used on the same set of rims. But at what force would you lock the rear or do an endo over the front?
I think you are missing the entire point of Single pivot vs dual pivot vs disc brakes. Yes, you can generate enough braking force with single pivot brakes to endo and or lock up. Back in the late 70's as a kid I endo'd my low end centurion a couple of times trying to avoid cars pulling out in front of me. That bike had fairly crappy side pulls on heavy 27 inch wheels and I was 13.

It really is not a problem to exert enough lever force to stop fast. The advantage to new brakes is force multiplication between the lever and the brake pad. As the force multiplication of the system increases, the brakes are easier to control/manage. On an old single pivot system, you had to squeeze hard with your whole hand to stop fast. with a new disc brake system, you can squeeze firmly with one finger to generate the same braking force. This once you get used to it means that you can better modulate the braking force which gives you much more control during braking.

I have bikes with single pivot, dual pivot, v brakes, and disc brakes and swap between them all the time. When you ride them, the advantages to newer brakes are very clear and have nothing to do with maximum braking force.
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Old 04-01-16, 09:03 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by vettracer View Post
I think you are missing the entire point of Single pivot vs dual pivot vs disc brakes. Yes, you can generate enough braking force with single pivot brakes to endo and or lock up. Back in the late 70's as a kid I endo'd my low end centurion a couple of times trying to avoid cars pulling out in front of me. That bike had fairly crappy side pulls on heavy 27 inch wheels and I was 13.
I'm talking specifically about the brakes on my bikes. They are from the 50s and earlier. I imagine they are far worse than the brakes from the 70s. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

But I will stand by my original statement, "when compared to a single-pivot long-reach side-pull caliper, dual pivot will stop shorter in all cases. I am happy to set up that experiment with my bikes."

The key part of the statement is the "long-reach" portion. The calipers accommodate a 35mm tire with a fender. They are thin arms that twist and torque when the brakes are applied. I have never been able to lock up those, ever. They are horribly inefficient when compared to the short-reach dual-pivot calipers.

I am willing to take a more rigorous look at it though, I find it to be an interesting experiment. To make it more fair would be to use "new" pads from the era, but since there is no such thing, they would be hard and crusty. I don't think I can factor in modern pad technology. Unless someone has an idea about that.
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Old 04-01-16, 09:45 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
I can't say anything about the particular brake they used, old and crusty or refurbished and perfect. But when compared to a single-pivot long-reach side-pull caliper, dual pivot will stop shorter in all cases. I am happy to set up that experiment with my bikes.
The dual pivot should win in your experiment. It does have a small mechanical advantage over sidepull, so if all other variables are equal (pad composition, rim composition, tire composition) you will be able to apply more force more quickly to reduce your velocity. However, the reason they exist is because it is so easy to keep the pad to rim clearance very small, which means you are using the initial brake lever movement to provide the stopping power. If you can get a sidepull adjusted with the pads very close, and the return springs are greased really well, and a bunch of other things go well, there isn't much difference in leverage (It think it is roughly 4:1 sidepull vs 5:1 dual pivot). However, we all know those things are all virtually impossible to accomplish with a vintage sidepull. And if you do accomplish them, then the brake goes out of center after your first stop.
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Old 04-01-16, 10:19 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by ldmataya View Post
If you can get a sidepull adjusted with the pads very close, and the return springs are greased really well, and a bunch of other things go well, there isn't much difference in leverage (It think it is roughly 4:1 sidepull vs 5:1 dual pivot). However, we all know those things are all virtually impossible to accomplish with a vintage sidepull. And if you do accomplish them, then the brake goes out of center after your first stop.
Have you ever owned a quality vintage sidepull? This is simply not true unless the brakes are completely gunked up with mud or the springs corroded. My campy and superbe sidepulls never need centering after the initial setup.

It really puzzles me as to why there is so much mythology around brakes and the magical qualities of the slight mechanical advantage that a dual pivot gives. Of all the factors that influence how well a brake stops, the mechanical advantage is probably one of the most minor.

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Old 04-01-16, 10:38 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
"when compared to a single-pivot long-reach side-pull caliper, dual pivot will stop shorter in all cases. I am happy to set up that experiment with my bikes."

The key part of the statement is the "long-reach" portion. The calipers accommodate a 35mm tire with a fender. They are thin arms that twist and torque when the brakes are applied. I have never been able to lock up those, ever. They are horribly inefficient when compared to the short-reach dual-pivot calipers.
Well, you can't swap long reach for short reach on the same bike so that comparison does not matter. I have used diacomp 750 (75mm very long reach) centerpulls and they would generate plenty of braking force to endo or skid. Of course with modern pads on aluminum rim.

If you want to improve braking power, you improve friction first. Old hard compound pads on a steel rim will never come close to modern compound pads on an aluminum rim. I believe that if you put long reach Dual pivot brakes (Tektro 559) and used your old pads on your old rims, you won't find them any different in braking power.
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Old 04-01-16, 10:50 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by vettracer View Post
...

If you want to improve braking power, you improve friction first. Old hard compound pads on a steel rim will never come close to modern compound pads on an aluminum rim. I believe that if you put long reach Dual pivot brakes (Tektro 559) and used your old pads on your old rims, you won't find them any different in braking power.
This is a very valid point, which I started to note in my previous reply. However, as iab states the pads and rims would be the same, this factor in the equation would work out to be a constant.
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Old 04-01-16, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
In the case of GCN, they aren't in the business of selling new equipment. They're a network that dies cycling videos of all aspects of the sport. While some things they do aren't that scientific, it's real world stuff that's fun send entertaining to watch.
True Stan; well, sorta. GCN sells their own kit and bike accessories. They don't sell bikes, per say, but they do review them, and thus are a part of the advertising machine that is in the business of selling new bicycles. Don't get me wrong, I find a lot of their videos entertaining, and I still believe that newer bikes do offer advantages, but bad science is just bad science.
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Old 04-01-16, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Sorry about that. Apparently Vimeo isn't supported by some browsers.
It's all good Non-fix. It seems a daily thing for my operating system to tell me that this or that needs an update. I just assumed it was something on my side. I wished I would have caught the full video... it sounded like a pretty cool comparison.

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Old 04-01-16, 05:09 PM
  #45  
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What would be more interesting would be a comparison of old and new by a rider from BITD that knows how to work the machinery. Still the new would be faster, but the data would be more relevant.
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Old 04-01-16, 05:39 PM
  #46  
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the best braking for me is vintage levers with modern dual pivots (and kool-stops).

modern levers require less force, but are more difficult to modulate (for me).

vintage levers require a lot more force, but i prefer them for multiple reasons.

but i like the look of high-end vintage calipers (campy or dura ace), and they stop well enough as compared to modern calipers.
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Old 04-02-16, 11:41 AM
  #47  
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I'd like to see a comparison between a top-end vintage steel bike outfitted with modern components vs. a top end modern bike with modern components. I want the variable to be the frame material, and not every single element on the bike.
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Old 04-02-16, 11:51 AM
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I would like to see the equip the old and new frame with an identical 10 speed Ergo or STI drive train and wheels, with modern pedals for a comparison. All things equal.
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Old 04-02-16, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by armstrong101 View Post
I'd like to see a comparison between a top-end vintage steel bike outfitted with modern components vs. a top end modern bike with modern components. I want the variable to be the frame material, and not every single element on the bike.
Great minds think alike and post at the same time. LOL
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Old 04-02-16, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Whitlatch View Post
Great minds think alike and post at the same time. LOL
Or they post 10 mins apart LOL.
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