Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Japanese Tubing - What are the ABCs of this?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Japanese Tubing - What are the ABCs of this?

Old 04-05-16, 04:03 PM
  #26  
Banned.
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,199
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,413 Times in 913 Posts
Originally Posted by Darth Lefty
There's a nice Tange 1 Panasonic on my local CL this week too... with 600, and asking less than the aformentioned Le Mans :-D
And that Panasonic is definitely a step up from that Lemans. The newer LeMans/Lemans RS were Tange 2, and Exage/Light Action components. A Tange 1 with 600 sounds like a DX5000. The DX6000 was Prestige, I believe.
RobbieTunes is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 04:13 PM
  #27  
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,464

Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3133 Post(s)
Liked 2,115 Times in 1,378 Posts
indeed but you flippers might not think it a steal

Panasonic DX5000
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Darth Lefty is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 04:16 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,319

Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 660 Post(s)
Liked 601 Times in 314 Posts
Early/mid 70's Fuji were cro-mo double butted and freaky light. Is there a trade name or any info on manufacture? Fuji's Professionals were a 20lb bike. My '76 The Finest can easily make the 20.0's range. These Jap frames are a hidden gem.
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 04:28 PM
  #29  
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,035

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro

Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1038 Post(s)
Liked 1,243 Times in 657 Posts
Originally Posted by whatwolf
Is it possible to determine tube thickness from a completed frame?
Yes, with a hacksaw.... Boooo Boooo....

Years ago some folks I know had acess to a CAT scan machine at a local hospital. One Sunday afternoon, they snuck a bunch of frames in and scanned them. They found some interesting results!!!


Reynolds instruction sheet showing butt dimensions and which end to trim.




Since most bike frames had an element of hand work and quality control was usually very lax, it's not possible to reach a comprehensive conclusion concerning your question.

There are many tales about frames built with the butted section of the seat tube being installed upside down.

My first all Campy "pro" bike was a 1971 Gitane Super Corsa. It was so flexible across the bottom bracket that it would "ghost shift" with the slightest sprint. I'm convinced that they used a seat tube for a down tube!

verktyg

Chas.
Attached Images
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....

Chas. ;-)


Last edited by verktyg; 04-05-16 at 07:10 PM.
verktyg is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 04:36 PM
  #30  
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,840

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3617 Post(s)
Liked 3,447 Times in 1,958 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
How I see Tange's tubing in descending order-
Tange Prestige
Tange Champion 1
Tange Champion 2
Tange Infinity
Tange Champion(lower numbers)
Tange PG(plain guage chromoly)
All "Champion" tubes are seamless, butted chrome-moly; the numbers just indicate different wall thicknesses (smaller numbers mean thinner walls). "Prestige" tubing is heat-treated Champion tubing, also available in different wall thicknesses but not necessarily indicated on the decal.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 04:41 PM
  #31  
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,840

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3617 Post(s)
Liked 3,447 Times in 1,958 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
How I see Ishiwata's tubing in descending order
019
022
Triple Butted Si35
025
EXT and EXF
All their Mangyalloy tubesets
Ishiwata 022 was seamless, butted chrome-moly quite similar to Columbus SL. 019, 017, and 015 were just lighter gauges of the same material. I didn't work much with 024 or 025; l think they may also just be heavier gauges of seamless chrome-moly than 022:


Last edited by JohnDThompson; 04-05-16 at 06:43 PM.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:09 PM
  #32  
Partially Sane.
 
stardognine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Sunny Sacramento.
Posts: 3,559

Bikes: Soma Saga, pre-disc

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 643 Times in 468 Posts
Was Mangalloy a product of Ishiwata? Somehow I thought it was made by Tange. Either is fine by me, I guess I'm just confused about it.
stardognine is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:23 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by stardognine
Was Mangalloy a product of Ishiwata? Somehow I thought it was made by Tange. Either is fine by me, I guess I'm just confused about it.
Mangaloy was Tange's carbon-manganese alloy. Ishiwata's equivalent was called Magny, while Miyata called theirs Managalite.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:28 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
TenGrainBread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times in 336 Posts
Mangalloy is just a name for a steel alloy, like chromoly. Uses a high proportion of manganese in the alloy.
TenGrainBread is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:33 PM
  #35  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
I don't think Miyata ever made non-splined triple-butted tubing. Not 100% sure though.

The splines are similar to the spiral reinforcements used by Columbus in the SLX/TSX, etc... tubing.
Miyata introduced introduced their triple butted tubesets in 1985, a year before they introduced their splined triple butted tubeset. They were manufactured concurrently for at least a couple of years.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:36 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
TenGrainBread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times in 336 Posts
Ah, good to know!
TenGrainBread is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:38 PM
  #37  
Death fork? Naaaah!!
 
top506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The other Maine, north of RT 2
Posts: 5,338

Bikes: Seriously downsizing.

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 564 Post(s)
Liked 642 Times in 288 Posts
What T-Mar said.
My '87 Miyata 512 is triple-butted with no mention of slpines.

Top
__________________
You know it's going to be a good day when the stem and seatpost come right out.

(looking for a picture and not seeing it? Thank the Photobucket fiasco.PM me and I'll link it up.)
top506 is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:46 PM
  #38  
Partially Sane.
 
stardognine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Sunny Sacramento.
Posts: 3,559

Bikes: Soma Saga, pre-disc

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 643 Times in 468 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar
Mangaloy was Tange's carbon-manganese alloy. Ishiwata's equivalent was called Magny, while Miyata called theirs Managalite.
Aha, thanks for that info. So Miyata made the tubing, for my Canadian Peugeot Vagabond touring frame. I wouldn't try saying Miyata made the frame, not enough info, but it makes me wonder now. I'll probably have to look a little closer at the actual Miyata frames, to compare.
stardognine is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 05:48 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
davester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 2,544

Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International"

Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 936 Post(s)
Liked 1,331 Times in 493 Posts
Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
I don't think Miyata ever made non-splined triple-butted tubing. Not 100% sure though.

The splines are similar to the spiral reinforcements used by Columbus in the SLX/TSX, etc... tubing.
Yes they did. That's the difference between my Miyata 710 (non-splined triple-butted) and the more expensive models.
davester is online now  
Old 04-05-16, 05:50 PM
  #40  
curmudgineer
 
old's'cool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago SW burbs
Posts: 4,417

Bikes: 2 many 2 fit here

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 263 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 70 Posts
old's'cool is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 06:00 PM
  #41  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by whatwolf
...Is it possible to determine tube thickness from a completed frame?
That would be a qualified yes. Since the top end of seat tube is exposed it is possible to measure both inside and outside diameters to calculate the wall thickness. However, there pitfalls. The nominal dimension can be affected by factors such as distortion, burrs, scale, foreign material, honing and reaming. Most owners will simply use the seat post size as a gauge and assume 0.2mm total diametrical clearance between it and the inside diameter of the seat tube.

Once you calculate the seat tube thickness you can go to tubing charts to find the appropriate tubeset. (If you don't know the manufacturer, you can refer to the fork, which generally has the manufacturer' name or logo stamped on the steerer). Typically, it is pretty safe to assume that the top and down tubes are from the same tubeset but it is fairly common to use lesser grade in the stays and forks.

There's a additional pitfall with Tange tubesets in that they typically used a double butted seat tube with a common top butt thickness. This is great for the assemblers, as it reduces the sizes of posts that hey have to stock, but it makes it tricky to determine the grade of the tubeset in the absence of a decal.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 04-05-16, 06:06 PM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by verktyg
...My first all Campy "pro" bike was a 1971 Gitane Super Corsa. It was so flexible across the bottom bracket that it would "ghost shift" with the slightest sprint. I'm convinced that they used a seat tube for a down tube!...
I could do that with just about any French bicycle, courtesy of the smaller diameter, metric sized seat and down tubes which reduced stiffness.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 04-06-16, 12:15 AM
  #43  
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,035

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro

Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1038 Post(s)
Liked 1,243 Times in 657 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar
I could do that with just about any French bicycle, courtesy of the smaller diameter, metric sized seat and down tubes which reduced stiffness.
@T-Mar - you're just an animal!


verktyg

Chas.
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....

Chas. ;-)

verktyg is offline  
Old 04-06-16, 05:05 AM
  #44  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 656 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,882 Posts
Originally Posted by verktyg
@T-Mar - you're just an animal!


verktyg

Chas.
Not anymore. Notice that I said "could", not "can". Well, maybe I still can on a Vitus.
T-Mar is offline  
Old 04-06-16, 07:19 AM
  #45  
Senior Member
 
Glennfordx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,959

Bikes: Too many Bicycles to list

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked 138 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by top506
What T-Mar said.
My '87 Miyata 512 is triple-butted with no mention of slpines.

Top
+1 my 512 (not sure on the year) also doesn't mention splines just that it's triple butted.

Glenn
Glennfordx4 is offline  
Old 04-06-16, 08:06 AM
  #46  
Senior Member
 
Cougrrcj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3,478

Bikes: A few...

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 620 Post(s)
Liked 372 Times in 258 Posts
So we have charts of Tange and Ishiwata, but what about some specs for the various Miyata tubing of various years, as well as Fuji's Vialite (some are quad-butted!)??? Actual thicknesses would be nice, as well as the heat-treatment...
Cougrrcj is offline  
Old 04-06-16, 08:54 AM
  #47  
Full Member
 
Pogliaghi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 439
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked 60 Times in 21 Posts
Kaisei tubing is manufactured today and is exactly the same as the Ishiwata tubing of the past. Cherubim use this tubing. Here is a chart with information for their 019 Glories Victory.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
2005kaisei0006.jpg (97.9 KB, 161 views)
Pogliaghi is offline  
Old 04-06-16, 09:07 AM
  #48  
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,479
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 2,979 Times in 1,831 Posts
I wish manufacturers would choose new names rather than reusing names like Prestige and SL. It makes things confusing, but I get why they do it.
__________________
Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?), 1990 Concorde Aquila(hit by car while riding), others in build queue "when I get the time"





himespau is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
jet sanchEz
Classic & Vintage
26
10-01-21 08:51 PM
howellhandmade
Classic & Vintage
5
07-06-17 06:02 PM
heavyonion
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
0
03-22-16 05:35 PM
arex
Classic & Vintage
7
05-15-14 09:40 PM
longjohns
Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
12
04-16-11 05:14 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.