Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Schwinn Paramount experts - tapping your expertise

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Schwinn Paramount experts - tapping your expertise

Old 04-22-16, 01:43 PM
  #1  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Schwinn Paramount experts - tapping your expertise

While I find Paramounts pretty cool, I've always disliked one thing about them: the brazing at the seat/chain stay-to-dropout transition. Brit and French bikes tended to cut a slot and leave the tubing ends rounded, and of course the Italians tended to cut the tubing ends at an angle, then file, giving the transition a concave look.

Schwinn Paramounts, however? Well, they did this:



What are we seeing here? No rounded tube end, and certainly no cut end with finish filing. I mean, for a frame that is so exquisitely brazed up, why this ugly transition? I'll be honest, this is the only bit on a vintage Paramount that just drives me nuts - and has most likely kept me from searching for one in my size.

Anybody out there have any input as to why/how this bit was done this way at Schwinn?

Apologies in advance to all you Paramount owners; my intention is not to insult but to garner information.

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/


Last edited by Drillium Dude; 04-23-16 at 12:01 PM.
Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-22-16, 01:55 PM
  #2  
Scooper
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,489

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
The stays are slotted and brazed. What you're seeing is extra braze filler to create what I guess they thought would look like a smooth fillet-like transition.

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 04-22-16, 02:06 PM
  #3  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
The stays are slotted and brazed. What you're seeing is extra braze filler to create what I guess they thought would look like a smooth fillet-like transition.

Thank you. I'd like to find a pic of one with the paint or chrome removed. Would be interesting to see how much of that area is brass, because, yeah - I can't really make out where the stay ends and the brass begins.

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-22-16, 07:31 PM
  #4  
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Posts: 11,563

Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)

Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 668 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 181 Posts
I agree with the Chicago Paramounts.



Consider instead the early '80s Waterford Paramounts.



__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline  
Old 04-22-16, 09:00 PM
  #5  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,486
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1748 Post(s)
Liked 620 Times in 482 Posts
I am pretty sure during the bulk of the Chicago years used stays and blades with pre domed ends from Reynolds, some boxed tubing kits came that way too.
The soft undefined form seen is a bronze fillet, finished off to varying degrees of acceptability. Not a bad way to go for the chrome plating polishers down the production line. Schwinn did fillets at the bridges too.
If you like blacksmithed and filed ends the way the Italians did it, Schwinn is not your brand.
repechage is offline  
Old 04-22-16, 10:47 PM
  #6  
gugie 
Dilberteur at large
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,065

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 991 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3182 Post(s)
Liked 1,421 Times in 726 Posts
Double D, gotta agree with you. It's not an area that stands out on a bike, but it's not very interesting looking-kinda a blob.

But it is a good for chrome.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is online now  
Old 04-22-16, 11:43 PM
  #7  
Jeff Wills
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
 
Jeff Wills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,501
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 660 Post(s)
Liked 293 Times in 191 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
I am pretty sure during the bulk of the Chicago years used stays and blades with pre domed ends from Reynolds, some boxed tubing kits came that way too.
The soft undefined form seen is a bronze fillet, finished off to varying degrees of acceptability. Not a bad way to go for the chrome plating polishers down the production line. Schwinn did fillets at the bridges too.
If you like blacksmithed and filed ends the way the Italians did it, Schwinn is not your brand.
I somewhat agree. Most Paramount production predates the obsessive finishing by artisan framebuilders that came about in the late '70's/early '80's.

I remember that "The Custom Bicycle" (https://www.amazon.com/The-Custom-Bic.../dp/0878572554) reviewed a number of framebuilders, both decades-old and newly minted. The quotes from the long-established builders tended to pooh-pooh cosmetics.
__________________
Jeff Wills

Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 03:25 AM
  #8  
Hoss Cartright
Senior Member
 
Hoss Cartright's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Mid N/W Indiana
Posts: 465

Bikes: Schwinns, lots of them. Some Paramounts

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Hi DD. I enjoy these types of threads. Expands my knowledge of my Paramounts even more.
Hoss Cartright is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 07:35 AM
  #9  
CV-6 
If I own it, I ride it
 
CV-6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cardinal Country
Posts: 5,184

Bikes: Lejeune, Raleigh, Raysport, Jan De Reus, Gazelle, Masi, B. Carré, Springfield, Motobecane, John Howard, Greg Lemond, Andre Bertin

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 276 Times in 150 Posts
It's all about the ride. How many of us have French frames where the finish is iffy but the ride is sublime? I have not yet ridden a Paramount but I bet they are nice riders.
__________________
Please do not "like" my posts. This isn't Facebook.

Lynn Travers

Photos

CV-6 is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 08:00 AM
  #10  
D1andonlyDman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Northern San Diego
Posts: 1,857

Bikes: mid 1980s De Rosa SL, 1985 Tommasini Super Prestige all Campy SR, 1992 Paramount PDG Series 7, 1997 Lemond Zurich, 1998 Trek Y-foil, 2006 Schwinn Super Sport GS, 2006 Specialized Hardrock Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've noticed that I can't even see the area where the rear dropout meets the stays while I'm riding. And anyone who CAN see it while you're riding is behind you, so they are probably more fixated on the fact that you're ahead of them.

So I suggest that if the look of this area of the bike offends you, it's because you're looking at it, rather than riding it. So ride it instead.
D1andonlyDman is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 08:00 AM
  #11  
Scooper
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,489

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
I agree with the Chicago Paramounts.

Consider instead the early '80s Waterford Paramounts.
I agree with Bob and Jeff Wills. After the move to Waterford in 1980/1981, Schwinn paid much more attention to these kinds of details, and the cosmetics have gotten progressively better. Before the late 70s/early 80s, the head lugs and seat clusters were finished better than the BB shells and dropouts. After the move to Waterford all the details became important. I think Marc Muller had a lot to do with this change in the culture, and it filtered down to the mid-to-late eighties Greenvile built bikes.

1987:



1994:



2007:

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.

Last edited by Scooper; 04-23-16 at 08:25 AM.
Scooper is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 09:56 AM
  #12  
Bikerider007 
Senior Member
 
Bikerider007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,450

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 457 Post(s)
Liked 42 Times in 27 Posts
@Drillium Dude There seems to be a theme, we had to show our ugly parts in another thread and now this. I think you are a perfectionist my friend

Which is not a bad thing
Bikerider007 is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:21 AM
  #13  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by Bikerider007 View Post
@Drillium Dude There seems to be a theme, we had to show our ugly parts in another thread and now this. I think you are a perfectionist my friend

Which is not a bad thing
Ah, but in that one I was celebrating the ugly

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:30 AM
  #14  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
I agree with Bob and Jeff Wills. After the move to Waterford in 1980/1981, Schwinn paid much more attention to these kinds of details, and the cosmetics have gotten progressively better. Before the late 70s/early 80s, the head lugs and seat clusters were finished better than the BB shells and dropouts. After the move to Waterford all the details became important. I think Marc Muller had a lot to do with this change in the culture, and it filtered down to the mid-to-late eighties Greenvile built bikes.

1987:



1994:



2007:

I agree completely - in fact, that work above is flawless and every bit as finely-done as any high-end frame. I should've specified the 60s/70s Paramounts.

I note this process is "good for chrome" a couple times above. Call me dense, but I don't understand why. Could someone elaborate?

The look doesn't offend me. Nor do Schwinns as a rule (I grew up riding a couple). It's just this one, and this one area on the frame; specifically, and I guess I didn't make this clear in my first post, it doesn't look right to me because everything else on the frame is done with such fine work.

As far as bikes go, I enjoy aesthetics and riding equally. Anyone familiar with one of my builds will know the details matter to me. It's part of who I am.

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/


Last edited by Drillium Dude; 04-23-16 at 01:19 PM.
Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:32 AM
  #15  
big chainring 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wilmette, IL
Posts: 6,954
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 628 Post(s)
Liked 349 Times in 178 Posts
The Paramount Track frames were even more exaggerated with the amount of brass fill at the dropouts. I always thought that Schwinn did this because every Schwinn had a lifetime warranty. More material at the dropouts, less likely to failure, even with abuse.
big chainring is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:35 AM
  #16  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by Hoss Cartright View Post
Hi DD. I enjoy these types of threads. Expands my knowledge of my Paramounts even more.
Hoss, glad it's added to your bike knowledge I learned a thing or two myself (I'm still hoping for a bare metal/brass pic, tho).

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:37 AM
  #17  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by big chainring View Post
The Paramount Track frames were even more exaggerated with the amount of brass fill at the dropouts. I always thought that Schwinn did this because every Schwinn had a lifetime warranty. More material at the dropouts, less likely to failure, even with abuse.
Very interesting theory! They wouldn't necessarily need gobs of stuff at the lugs, but the dropouts? Why not?

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:44 AM
  #18  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
It's all about the ride. How many of us have French frames where the finish is iffy but the ride is sublime? I have not yet ridden a Paramount but I bet they are nice riders.
I agree - no matter what anyone rides, they ride it primarily for the ride.

I just can't abide this bit of the whole which provides (so I've been told) such a nice ride

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:56 AM
  #19  
Scooper
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,489

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
One thing to bear in mind is that too abrupt a transition from stays to dropout is just asking for stress risers.

Brass brazing filler doesn't attract a magnet, so one way to get some idea of where the stays and dropout materials are vs the filler is to poke around the dropouts with a magnet. The "Spot Rot" magnet, used for detecting plastic body filler in vintage cars that may be riddled with rust, is great for this because it has a scale to show how strong the magnetic force is.

__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:58 AM
  #20  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,486
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1748 Post(s)
Liked 620 Times in 482 Posts
Originally Posted by CV-6 View Post
It's all about the ride. How many of us have French frames where the finish is iffy but the ride is sublime? I have not yet ridden a Paramount but I bet they are nice riders.
My view was and still is that the French often went in fast, overflowed the brass and got the heck out and on to the next lug. You don't find gaps. This view has been reinforced a number of times when I have stripped a French frame to metal. Not that this was exclusive. One could say the French had élan.

One notable semi production exception were the Motobecane Champion Team (orange frames) they had the stay ends and dropouts finished filed like the Italians were known for.

There were a number of smaller constructeurs who did notably clean work and a few brands like C.N.C. where the whole range of finish could be found.

For Schwinn, the Chicago Paramounts as a group present a similar stay treatment, I think it was more successful on the track bikes rather than the road frames.
I wonder if they used dynafiles on the brazing, balancing art, love, time and money plus plating friendly.
repechage is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:58 AM
  #21  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,309 Times in 822 Posts
Stays shipped domed over at the ends from the Reynolds tube mill I suspect,

rest is the filler brass applied at the Paramount shop.

Other techniques are what others show they're OK too ..


any length cutting got Done on the front/top end of the tubes to keep the rounded Dome end. .

Last edited by fietsbob; 04-23-16 at 12:03 PM.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 12:10 PM
  #22  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Stays shipped domed over at the ends from the Reynolds tube mill I suspect,

rest is the filler brass applied at the Paramount shop.

Other techniques are what others show they're OK too ..


any length cutting got Done on the front/top end of the tubes to keep the rounded Dome end. .
This is what I've wondered. So there's a rounded end under there, Schwinn just used extra-extra brass so that the dome basically disappears? It's been awhile since I've seen a Paramount in the flesh, so pictures sometimes don't convey.

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 12:28 PM
  #23  
Scooper
Decrepit Member
 
Scooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Posts: 10,489

Bikes: Waterford 953 RS-22, several Paramounts

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 33 Posts
531 Seat Stays and Chain stays.



__________________
- Stan

my bikes

Science doesn't care what you believe.
Scooper is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 01:43 PM
  #24  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
Thread Starter
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 10,689
Mentioned: 208 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1724 Post(s)
Liked 1,408 Times in 626 Posts
Originally Posted by D1andonlyDman View Post
I've noticed that I can't even see the area where the rear dropout meets the stays while I'm riding. And anyone who CAN see it while you're riding is behind you, so they are probably more fixated on the fact that you're ahead of them.

So I suggest that if the look of this area of the bike offends you, it's because you're looking at it, rather than riding it. So ride it instead.
Well, no, I can't see the stay ends from the saddle, either. But our bikes stand still at some point, and I believe all of us like to sneak admiring looks at 'em now and then

I guess part of it is my perceived inconsistency of the overall product; the stay end transition just doesn't seem to jive with all the other fantastic workmanship (I've seen pics of chromed Nervex Pros on these bikes and they're sooooo nicely done!). I know, it's just me. My opinion, for what it's worth

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 09:23 PM
  #25  
Metacortex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,371

Bikes: Fillet-brazed Schwinns

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 10 Posts
I don't have much to add except to say that the stay to dropout brazing looks pretty good on this late '75 (L7528):

Metacortex is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.