Drillium Dude 

While I find Paramounts pretty cool, I've always disliked one thing about them: the brazing at the seat/chain stay-to-dropout transition. Brit and French bikes tended to cut a slot and leave the tubing ends rounded, and of course the Italians tended to cut the tubing ends at an angle, then file, giving the transition a concave look.

Schwinn Paramounts, however? Well, they did this:



What are we seeing here? No rounded tube end, and certainly no cut end with finish filing. I mean, for a frame that is so exquisitely brazed up, why this ugly transition? I'll be honest, this is the only bit on a vintage Paramount that just drives me nuts - and has most likely kept me from searching for one in my size.

Anybody out there have any input as to why/how this bit was done this way at Schwinn?

Apologies in advance to all you Paramount owners; my intention is not to insult but to garner information.

DD

Scooper

The stays are slotted and brazed. What you're seeing is extra braze filler to create what I guess they thought would look like a smooth fillet-like transition.

Drillium Dude 

Thank you. I'd like to find a pic of one with the paint or chrome removed. Would be interesting to see how much of that area is brass, because, yeah - I can't really make out where the stay ends and the brass begins.

DD

pastorbobnlnh 

I agree with the Chicago Paramounts.



Consider instead the early '80s Waterford Paramounts.

repechage

I am pretty sure during the bulk of the Chicago years used stays and blades with pre domed ends from Reynolds, some boxed tubing kits came that way too.
The soft undefined form seen is a bronze fillet, finished off to varying degrees of acceptability. Not a bad way to go for the chrome plating polishers down the production line. Schwinn did fillets at the bridges too.
If you like blacksmithed and filed ends the way the Italians did it, Schwinn is not your brand.

gugie 

Double D, gotta agree with you. It's not an area that stands out on a bike, but it's not very interesting looking-kinda a blob.

But it is a good for chrome.

Jeff Wills

I somewhat agree. Most Paramount production predates the obsessive finishing by artisan framebuilders that came about in the late '70's/early '80's.

I remember that "The Custom Bicycle" (https://www.amazon.com/The-Custom-Bic.../dp/0878572554) reviewed a number of framebuilders, both decades-old and newly minted. The quotes from the long-established builders tended to pooh-pooh cosmetics.

Hoss Cartright

Hi DD. I enjoy these types of threads. Expands my knowledge of my Paramounts even more.

CV-6 

It's all about the ride. How many of us have French frames where the finish is iffy but the ride is sublime? I have not yet ridden a Paramount but I bet they are nice riders.

D1andonlyDman

I've noticed that I can't even see the area where the rear dropout meets the stays while I'm riding. And anyone who CAN see it while you're riding is behind you, so they are probably more fixated on the fact that you're ahead of them.

So I suggest that if the look of this area of the bike offends you, it's because you're looking at it, rather than riding it. So ride it instead.

Scooper

I agree with Bob and Jeff Wills. After the move to Waterford in 1980/1981, Schwinn paid much more attention to these kinds of details, and the cosmetics have gotten progressively better. Before the late 70s/early 80s, the head lugs and seat clusters were finished better than the BB shells and dropouts. After the move to Waterford all the details became important. I think Marc Muller had a lot to do with this change in the culture, and it filtered down to the mid-to-late eighties Greenvile built bikes.

1987:



1994:



2007:

Bikerider007 

@Drillium Dude There seems to be a theme, we had to show our ugly parts in another thread and now this. I think you are a perfectionist my friend

Which is not a bad thing

Drillium Dude 

Ah, but in that one I was celebrating the ugly

DD

Drillium Dude 

I agree completely - in fact, that work above is flawless and every bit as finely-done as any high-end frame. I should've specified the 60s/70s Paramounts.

I note this process is "good for chrome" a couple times above. Call me dense, but I don't understand why. Could someone elaborate?

The look doesn't offend me. Nor do Schwinns as a rule (I grew up riding a couple). It's just this one, and this one area on the frame; specifically, and I guess I didn't make this clear in my first post, it doesn't look right to me because everything else on the frame is done with such fine work.

As far as bikes go, I enjoy aesthetics and riding equally. Anyone familiar with one of my builds will know the details matter to me. It's part of who I am.

DD

big chainring 

The Paramount Track frames were even more exaggerated with the amount of brass fill at the dropouts. I always thought that Schwinn did this because every Schwinn had a lifetime warranty. More material at the dropouts, less likely to failure, even with abuse.

Drillium Dude 

Hoss, glad it's added to your bike knowledge I learned a thing or two myself (I'm still hoping for a bare metal/brass pic, tho).

DD

Drillium Dude 

Very interesting theory! They wouldn't necessarily need gobs of stuff at the lugs, but the dropouts? Why not?

DD

Drillium Dude 

I agree - no matter what anyone rides, they ride it primarily for the ride.

I just can't abide this bit of the whole which provides (so I've been told) such a nice ride

DD

Scooper

One thing to bear in mind is that too abrupt a transition from stays to dropout is just asking for stress risers.

Brass brazing filler doesn't attract a magnet, so one way to get some idea of where the stays and dropout materials are vs the filler is to poke around the dropouts with a magnet. The "Spot Rot" magnet, used for detecting plastic body filler in vintage cars that may be riddled with rust, is great for this because it has a scale to show how strong the magnetic force is.

repechage

My view was and still is that the French often went in fast, overflowed the brass and got the heck out and on to the next lug. You don't find gaps. This view has been reinforced a number of times when I have stripped a French frame to metal. Not that this was exclusive. One could say the French had élan.

One notable semi production exception were the Motobecane Champion Team (orange frames) they had the stay ends and dropouts finished filed like the Italians were known for.

There were a number of smaller constructeurs who did notably clean work and a few brands like C.N.C. where the whole range of finish could be found.

For Schwinn, the Chicago Paramounts as a group present a similar stay treatment, I think it was more successful on the track bikes rather than the road frames.
I wonder if they used dynafiles on the brazing, balancing art, love, time and money plus plating friendly.

fietsbob

Stays shipped domed over at the ends from the Reynolds tube mill I suspect,

rest is the filler brass applied at the Paramount shop.

Other techniques are what others show they're OK too ..


any length cutting got Done on the front/top end of the tubes to keep the rounded Dome end. .

Drillium Dude 

This is what I've wondered. So there's a rounded end under there, Schwinn just used extra-extra brass so that the dome basically disappears? It's been awhile since I've seen a Paramount in the flesh, so pictures sometimes don't convey.

DD

Scooper

531 Seat Stays and Chain stays.

Drillium Dude 

Well, no, I can't see the stay ends from the saddle, either. But our bikes stand still at some point, and I believe all of us like to sneak admiring looks at 'em now and then

I guess part of it is my perceived inconsistency of the overall product; the stay end transition just doesn't seem to jive with all the other fantastic workmanship (I've seen pics of chromed Nervex Pros on these bikes and they're sooooo nicely done!). I know, it's just me. My opinion, for what it's worth

DD

Metacortex

I don't have much to add except to say that the stay to dropout brazing looks pretty good on this late '75 (L7528):