micksf

Hi there BF peeps,

i've been a road rider for a long time. i'm starting to get up there in middle age and am looking for a new project. I rented a bike in Amsterdam a while back that was a very comfortable upright. Plus I just find this style bicycle beautiful to look at. That combination has brought me to you. I want to build a city bike like the ones pictured below for quick trips to my studio, hardware store, ect.. I've been doing a ton of preliminary research but I still have more to go. My hope was to purchase an older steel frame (old steel preferred, but not necessary), powder coat it and put modern components on it. I know there are limitations with older frames and doing the research here is where I think I'm at...

I believe I need a frame that supports a rear dropout width of 130mm to get a current model hub/cog in there without issue. As for BBs it seems like I can purchase new ones that come available in older and newer widths (so I might be fine there). At the moment, I've been looking at some older Trek frames. I'm originally from WI and my first real bike was a Trek so kinda partial to them. I've seen some 520s, 730s & 750 ranging from early 90's to mid-90's on CL for decent prices. I've even seen an early 90's lugged 750 recently. Also, I've strayed a bit and browsed a Cannondale H400 and even a new surly cross-check frame.

I'm still at the beginning of this, and I've got some questions.

1) Other than going out and physically measuring these bikes, is there a way to tell what model year a bike would have the necessary rear dropout width to accommodate modern gears? I've checked some spec websites but this specification is not typically listed. I've read an article for manually spreading the rear stays, I'm handy but that seems out of my pay grade. Maybe an old frame is just not realistic for what I want to do?

2) Are there any other issues/limitations (headset, chainstay length, ect) that might cause me a problem or that I should be aware of when looking at these older frames? I would assume to check for frame integrity but I'm more worried about weird threads or tube widths that will screw me during the build.

3) I'm 5'9.5". My current road frame is 56cm. It's not setup as an aggressive riding position, but I would imagine I would be sitting even more upright with my new bike. Can someone chime in on a general rule for sizing for a bike like i'm trying to build? I'm wondering if I should be looking for a size smaller to accommodate higher handlebars, ect. I can test ride these bikes that I am looking at but they are not really setup the same (drop bars, ect) so it's hard for me to imagine what its going to feel like when I'm on it.

4) I'm leaning heavily towards the standard external rear cog/derailleur but have been intrigued somewhat by the internal geared hubs I've seen. any thoughts?

I apologize for all of info here as I'm at the beginning of this project. Part of the fun is the discovery but I'm trying to avoid costly mistakes up front, any help is appreciated. thanks in advance.

mick

artclone

You'll want to figure out what tires you want to use. 28-35 are nice for tooling about but anything larger gets mushy feeling. Many race frames won't fit larger than 25. Touring bikes are great for converting. Once you find a potential frame, ask here about tire clearance.

I'm about your size. You'll want to stick with 56cm IMO. 58 will work but your seat will likely be so low it bugs you.

CliffordK

An option would be to find an old 27" bike. Motobecane, for example, used a lot of 27" tires, even in their higher quality bikes like the Grand Jubilee. Most 27" bikes would have either 120mm or 126mm rear dropouts, but that could be cold-set to 130mm. They should also have a bit more relaxed geometry, and may accept fenders.

Brakes can be an issue.

micksf

I guess I was initially thinking of running something like a 700 x 32-38 tire.

NormanF

Look at the Trek Allant - its Trek's commuter/city bike in its lineup:



More here:

Allant | Trek Bikes

Trek's description:


The cure for the common commute

Allant is a comfortable, reliable commuter with classic city bike styling, and DuoTrap S compatibility so you can track every mile.

Allant’s savvy blend of style and function make it the perfect way to commute, dash to the farmers’ market, or cruise the boulevard.
Track and map your miles

DuoTrap S-compatible frame lets you add the DuoTrap S sensor, then track miles ridden and fitness gained using your smartphone.

Steadfast stopping power

Weatherproof disc brakes provide confident stopping power in all conditions.
Smart style

Impeccable city-bike styling is equally suited to commuting and cruising.
Fewer flats

Flat-resistant, weather-worthy Bontrager Hard-Case tires keep you rolling, day in and day out.

Classtime 

Vintage pretty much rules out 130 in the back unless you cold set from 126 to 130. Start with a 6 speed which are 126. You could get your new bike set up with the original 6 speed and see if that is enough. If you are determined to run 11 speed and you like your Gunnar, look at Milwaukee bikes. They're made by Waterford and will do everything you want. People think mine is C&V.

Salamandrine 

1) Roughly, 120 is used for 5 speed rears, and was dominant until about 1980. From 1980 to say the early 90s, 126 was most common. 126 is for 6 or 7 speed. After that, the modern road bike spacing of 130 (8/9/10+ speed) started to dominate, which we still have today. (some road bikes use 135 tho)

2) Not much to worry about, though I would get a bike with somewhat relaxed touring angles and a longish wheelbase if possible. You may want to mount fenders on a commuter, and you'll need the space.

3) I would suggest you follow the old guideline of 1-2" of standover height to find your size, assuming it's a non sloping top tube. For a commuter, bars level with the saddle is probably a good starting point.

4) I would absolutely use an IGH if I was making up an ideal a commuter from scratch. 3 speed is fine, maybe 5 speed if it's very hilly. It's a huge advantage not to need to worry about getting black chain and chainwheel marks on your pants/socks/whatever. IMO a modern 10speed derailleur system is simply not needed for a commute bike. (unless you are commuting to work in a paceline over rolling hills at highest possible speed and trying not to get dropped.... )

For that matter I'd seriously consider hub brakes too, maybe with a dynamo. The old roadsters had some good ideas. Or get all modern and use disks.

BTW, I commuted by bike in SF for about 20 years, and I'd still say IGH would be perfect.

bdooner

I'd keep this idea/project simple. In terms of a cush ride, early mtn. bikes would be my go to. There are a lot of nearly new bikes bikes from that era, barely ridden garage queens.
High end steel tubes.
Ridged forks.... stay away from old rockshocks.
6-7 spd. cassettes with triple chainrings. For a townie, more gears than you could possibly need.
Lots of room for street tires/fenders.
Go high end if possible. For a few bucks more you'll get XT as opposed to Deore or LX. By the way, even those groups work very well.
Think Trek 930, 950 and 970., but don't leave out Specialized Stumpjumpers and Rockhoppers, my favorite, the Bridgestone MB1-2's +3's.
There's Bianchi Grizzlies, Miyata Ridgerunners, the list goes on.
On pg. 1+2 of C+V there are three good threads covering this genre.
Show your vin.mtn. bikes.
Vintage mtn.bike sleepers.
Mtn. bike drop bar conversions. Some of these are somewhat upright.

blakcloud

You could think about a 650b conversion. This way you might get the 38 mm tire you want to fit in there. As for frame size at least 56 cm if that is what you ride. Even the 56 is going to feel cramped as the top tube is not going to be long enough for the type of bars you might be thinking of. Someone suggested a mountain bike conversion and lots of people do them but for me the bottom bracket is just to high and completely unnecessary. There was a thread on here a while ago called "The Poor Man's Rivendell". You might want to search that up as there were many good ideas in that thread. Sounds like a nice project. Good luck.

micksf

I have to say those Milwaukee frames look great. I had not heard of them for some reason. Looks like they are only distributed through a local shop out of milwaukee. I'll have to look more into to those. thanks for the heads up. that could be a contender.

micksf

Thats good intel. useful, thanks.

I'm not locked into modern components for the sake of more gears per se. It's more about the trouble of sourcing the old stuff and overall reliability. Once this bike is done, I don't really want it to have to tinker with it too much. From what I can tell, component manufacturers don't sell 3 & 5- speed product any more. On the shimano site, you can't find a cassette for less than a 9-speed. If a part needs replacing I just want to be able to order it, not have to scour ebay for months and hope it fits together. maybe on the next project bike, but this one is about reliability, and hopefully adding some soul to it (hence the C&V mindset). If I was more knowledgeable about what parts work with others and what doesn't I'd be more open about it. hmmm, maybe I need to slow down and re-think this.

markk900

Sounds like a fun project; if you are interested in IGH (3/5/8 speed), Sunrace/Sturmey Archer, Shimano, and Rollof sell readily available brand new components.

I'm of 2 minds, having built up a couple of upright 3 speed bikes....most steel C&V frames are easily converted to whatever you like, but beware the tire/fender fit issues listed above. I like these types of bikes and they are closest to what you said you wanted. You can do IGH or derailleur, modern or old.

However, I do also agree with @bdooner as the old rigid mountain bikes make super commuters and they are bulletproof. My favorite ride right now is just such a bike and it does everything really nicely, if it is a bit heavy. With the right tires, some fenders, and racks (and the good old mountain bikes had braze-ons for fenders and racks) and you are into something very neat and useful for low $. However, they won't look as classic as the example you showed in the picture.

gugie 

Some specific answers to your specific needs:

You're commuting in SF, I'd go with a wider tire. I imagine you either have MUNI tracks on your commute, or would run errands that bring you down those roads. There are a lot of advantages to wider tires, one being they're much less likely to get stuck in those tracks. All else being equal, you'll also have fewer flats (lower running pressure, more volume so if you do have a leak, you can still get to work/home, fewer/no pinch flats)

Do you have a place to safely park the bike at work and home? Some of the best commute bikes look like crap. Here's one I took a picture of last year that looks like crap, none of the parts match, but if you look carefully, it's well cared for, saddle and bar heights and reaches look quite appropriate for the frame, it has forged dropouts on the frame, etc.



If you need to climb some of those famous SF hills, rather than a triple, keep it simple and sacrifice gearing on the high end. Even if your commute is from the Marina to the Ferry Bldg and is perfectly flat, I imagine you're still going to want to use it to tool around The City. And that means more than 3 speeds. A 7 or 8 speed IGH would be nice, but more costly than derailleurs. If you've got the funds, though, I'd go for it - put on a chainguard, nice and clean!

If you want modern hubs, with sealed bearings and a freehub, you don't need to find a frame with 130mm spacing. You can respace an older frame to that using Sheldon Brown's method. The only caveat is to use a dropout tool or a DIY version to make sure they're parallel aftwards. As long as you're careful and sneak up on the spread and make sure you keep the dropouts centered, you'll be fine.

But remember this: If you ever lock it up outside, there's a decent chance it'll get stripped or stolen. Consider a Craigslist beater bike, regrease the bearings and put in new cables and housing, new tires, and ride the dang thing.

Salamandrine 

I have to agree that it would be unwise to spend too much on this project. It's pretty important that a bike not look too valuable. Locking up a bike for reasonably short periods of time is usually fine as long as you use a U lock and take off the front wheel. Certainly don't leave anything locked up overnight.

I'd also agree that just getting a decent but beat old road bike or hybrid of craigslist is a good way to go. Give it a rattle can paint job, some fenders, and some styley flat bars and call it a day. Use whatever drive train it comes with. At most, consider some stealthy upgrades like better rims and tires.

AFA as needing more than 3 or 5 speeds, I'll have to disagree. It's pretty easy to go around the steepest hills in most cases, like for example to get from downtown to the Haight or Golden Gate Park. That said I do agree with biasing the gearing ratios to the low side, sacrificing the steep gears. Obviously that's just my opinion. Different things work for different people. From a purely pragmatic perspective, it's going to be easier and more cost effective to start from some sort of old derailleur bike.

Anyway, just for general information, there are plenty of IGH available:

https://www.sram.com/sram/urban/comp...rnal-gear-hubs

Sturmey Archer | Products

Internal geared hubs

Classtime 

I ordered mine from Los Angeles and even had some customized braze-on alterations. They were a pleasure to deal with. My Milwaukee road will fit 35 CX tires or 28 Ruffy Tuffys with 40 mm Bertoud fenders.

brianinc-ville

FWIW, many of the modern Sturmey-Archer hubs, including the x-rf4 and x-rf5, are available in both 119mm and 130mm OLD spacing. I found that a 119mm x-rf5 (w), with two 4mm anti-rotation washers, fits just fine in 126mm rear spacing. Obviously, the classic AW hubs (114mm OLD) fit fine in spacing up to 126mm, as long as you've got the longer (6 1/4") axle.

If I were you, I'd look for an '80s Japanese sport-touring frame that was built for 27" wheels and go from there.

micksf

Unless I'm reading the specs incorrectly, the S/A 5 speed is 135mm & 128mm. In any case, shouldn't I be able to fit a 128mm on a 126mm span? It's only 2mm we are talking about. are the tolerances really that tight?

https://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/...EED%20HUBS.pdf

gugie 

Yeah, but then you'd have to be one of those Wiggle riders, running stop signs, and singing this in his head the whole time. Plus the OP stated he's starting to get up there in middle age. I live near a velodrome now, and find I need gears just to get up the banked curves...

micksf

that song truly is hilarious, I'm surrounded by those guys. unfortunately i'm one of the nice riders. there are a few of us out there.

gugie 

No problem. A lot of people make 130mm hubs fit into 126 without any issues. When I'm doing a build I check spacing, center with a frame alignment gauge, double check with a known good wheel, and use dropout tools to make sure they're parallel. 126 I'd space to 126+ (just a hair more), front wheels to 100+. It makes removing and replacing wheels easier. But I've got all the tools to do it.

IGH is a great solution for city commuting. If you're barreling downhill and miss a light, and decide not to be one of those potential Darwin Award winners that one reads about in Baghdad by the Bay, you can change gears while waiting for the light to change.

I moved to Portland a few years ago, fenders are de rigeur for the committed commuter. I do remember that some years it does rain a bit in the Bay Area, I'd recommend fenders as others have stated. Make sure the frame you pick has room for fenders and wider tires.

I'd look at late 70's through early 90's bikes that were advertised as "sports touring" or "touring" There are tons of brakes out there that will get you good braking power and still work with fenders and wider tires. If you're not sure what frames would work with fenders and the tires you want, ask us. When we're not doing our own builds or riding, we're online and living vicariously through others.

brianinc-ville

The "RX" series are more recent; they use a rotary arrangement for the shift linkage, similar to the Shimano Nexus. I haven't tried them yet. But the plain ol' "X" series (e.g., X-RF8) is still widely available, and will work with nominal rear spacing down to nominal 120mm (really 119 mm) -- just make sure you order the correct version.

I'd imagine that the 128mm RX series would work fine with 126mm rear spacing. Haven't tried it, though.

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the classic Sturmey hubs, which are much less finicky to adjust -- have you thought about an S5?

Narhay

What about an English 3 speed like a Raleigh sports or Superbe? Upright, inexpensive, 3 gears, classic style you're looking for.

gugie 

So, add a rear bumper to your list when you're rear-ended at Steiner and Waller. Or has SF changed the law to "bikes yield at stop signs" yet?

micksf

S5? is that another model Sturmey hub?

micksf

The Superbe is really easy on the eyes. thanks.