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Old vs New

Old 07-04-16, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Well let me chime in. Today I took my modern carbon fiber Scott CR1 Pro out for a century ride. The exact same route I did last week on my steel mid 90s Giordana Superleggero. Last week I finished with my usual foot pain but was otherwise totally fresh and ready for more miles. This despite not getting enough water and carbs in me during the ride. But this week I hydrated better and got a lot more carbs in me during the ride. But the Scott beat the crap out of me physically. By mile 75 I was very sore all over, wore out, and wanted to quit. The final miles sucked. That is precisely way I prefer vintage.

This is a good analogy for those having both modern and vintage. One who has a modern bike and never ridden vintage don't get it.

Though for the racer, vintage is out. Not even close to hanging in the fast crowd on vintage. Modern are jack rabbit climbers. Lower portions of the modern frames are highly evolved. That said, modern is often related as being throwaway bikes. Your'e not going to fix a broken ally or CF frame or fork.

Upper end (only) components from Shimano, SRAM are excellent performing - NOT the lower rank series. Campagnolo are excellent. Dialed in, are foolproof push button perfection. Same goes for longevity but don't expect serviceable parts when worn.

Vintage upper-end components have a certain charm about them, elegant simplicity, the feel and sound. Parts for older bikes are plentiful thanks to the unlimited online sources. Something thats also important in driving the demand for vintage. The best part is the ability to completely service them with very few specialty tools needed. Almost everything can be stripped and refurbished. Not so for modern components.

I like both modern and vintage but by far, prefer riding older bikes. Yet I also respect ones choice who prefers modern volume produced bike. Thank goodness vintage is not for everyone
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Old 07-04-16, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by crank_addict
This is a good analogy for those having both modern and vintage. One who has a modern bike and never ridden vintage don't get it.

Though for the racer, vintage is out. Not even close to hanging in the fast crowd on vintage. Modern are jack rabbit climbers. Lower portions of the modern frames are highly evolved. That said, modern is often related as being throwaway bikes. Your'e not going to fix a broken ally or CF frame or fork.

Upper end (only) components from Shimano, SRAM are excellent performing - NOT the lower rank series. Campagnolo are excellent. Dialed in, are foolproof push button perfection. Same goes for longevity but don't expect serviceable parts when worn.

Vintage upper-end components have a certain charm about them, elegant simplicity, the feel and sound. Parts for older bikes are plentiful thanks to the unlimited online sources. Something thats also important in driving the demand for vintage. The best part is the ability to completely service them with very few specialty tools needed. Almost everything can be stripped and refurbished. Not so for modern components.

I like both modern and vintage but by far, prefer riding older bikes. Yet I also respect ones choice who prefers modern volume produced bike. Thank goodness vintage is not for everyone
So true but reality is that for most rec riders there truly isn't a speed difference. I don't consider myself fast but pretty much every time I take the old 6 speed Giordana Antares out for a fun ride I wound up passing groups of kitted out, modern CF riders. Ran with one younger kid (in his 20s) until he gassed out. And then there was the guy laughing at my "pink" bike until his older and wiser riding partner pointed out how I ran them down with no problem, LOL!

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Old 07-04-16, 11:45 AM
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I kind of understand the less spokes as we used to believe back when I was riding that less spokes = less weight, and less wind resistance. But it came at a cost, as my friend who had a low spoke set of wheels which I think where either 16 or 20. If he went off a sidewalk curb the wheel would almost taco. And one day during a race, while going down a steep incline he accidentally hit a pot hole and the front wheel taco'ed, and he got flipped over doing over 60km/hr. It ended his racing season. I'm not sure if new wheels are this bad but it's something to consider.

I'm glad you guys also brought up the stiffness. It's easy to get caught up in the lighter = easier which I had been focused on. I'm not going racing, so I need something more so for going long distances.
I think also it's a bit of my past teenage inferiority complex creeping up. As when I was in a riding club in high school, I never felt like I could quite compete completely with the members that had the super expensive ultralight bikes. I felt pretty frustrated always finishing behind them at the time, but I realize now I was blaming the bike and not myself.

I think because I've been out of the loop/sport so long that it came as a bit of a shock how much cycling has changed. Even inexpensive bottom line bikes look somewhat space age to me, but looks aren't everything. I'm going to try and keep at getting my old bikes road worthy.
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Old 07-04-16, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by D1andonlyDman
As best I can tell, Sora 9 speed is functionally identical to older 105 9-speed, and older than that Ultegra 9 speed. It might be less durable, and use cheaper materials, but functionally, it works exactly the same as those older higher-end groups.
Not sure I agree on functionally identical, especially with the placement of that thumb shifter, but I do agree it works.

Few of us here, if any, can "outride" Sora, any more than we can "outdrive" a Prius. For years, my PR on a sprint tri leg was on an old bike ('89 Ironman) with "low end" Sora 9-sp shifters. I mounted them low on the drops so I could use the thumb shifters while on the drops, and simply had a great ride that day. They were certainly light enough for racing, and in my limited opinion, if someone is going to spend 90% of the time on the hoods/stops, Sora will serve them fine.

Today's Sora appears to be the Tiagra level of before, so it's not suffered much, and many a novice cyclist is out there on a "package" bike with Sora.

That being said, I do feed my fragile ego up the line to higher level components. Not because I need them. It would be nice to think I "need" 105/Ultegra/Dura Ace or their comparables in Campy or SRAM, but the truth is, I'm retired after winning the TdF 8 times in a row, and I ride for pleasure now, so Sora would do fine.
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Old 07-04-16, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cbrstar
Deep down I'd like to make my bikes run like new and ride them.
You are half way there, just by saying that. You can, and you will be able to make them run like new and ride them, even old bikes with older stuff. Some older stuff you may need to replace with better older stuff, that's all.

This is pretty much the place to launch that particular ship, and eBay is one big market if you can't find it here. Be a discerning buyer, and practice your wrenching. Once you get an older bike tuned and ready (especially the hubs and spokes), it's hard to beat the quiet silky ride. It's not hard to get there.

Just stay away from those Ironman bikes. Once you get one, it's sort of a downward spiral to debauchery. Aphrodite herself couldn't resist an Ironman, presidents want to buy you a beer, stuff like that. I mean, you get used to it, but it's a burden.....
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Old 07-04-16, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes
Not sure I agree on functionally identical, especially with the placement of that thumb shifter, but I do agree it works.

Few of us here, if any, can "outride" Sora, any more than we can "outdrive" a Prius. For years, my PR on a sprint tri leg was on an old bike ('89 Ironman) with "low end" Sora 9-sp shifters. I mounted them low on the drops so I could use the thumb shifters while on the drops, and simply had a great ride that day. They were certainly light enough for racing, and in my limited opinion, if someone is going to spend 90% of the time on the hoods/stops, Sora will serve them fine.

Today's Sora appears to be the Tiagra level of before, so it's not suffered much, and many a novice cyclist is out there on a "package" bike with Sora.

That being said, I do feed my fragile ego up the line to higher level components. Not because I need them. It would be nice to think I "need" 105/Ultegra/Dura Ace or their comparables in Campy or SRAM, but the truth is, I'm retired after winning the TdF 8 times in a row, and I ride for pleasure now, so Sora would do fine.
I should have specified that my comment about Sora being functionally identical to the higher end 9-speed groups was specific to the derailleurs - not the shifters. I actually was specifically referring to a brand new 9 Speed Sora RD, which I installed on my Paramount instead of a used Ultegra RD after determining that it was better looking, and functionally exactly identical to the Ultegra with the same cage length.
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Old 07-04-16, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
. And then there was the guy laughing at my "pink" bike until his older and wiser riding partner pointed out how I ran them down with no problem, LOL!


Obviously he had never heard of the Giro d' Italia
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Old 07-04-16, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy
There's lots of reasons Suntour went out of business- and the 3 pulley derailleurs are a part of it.

Suntour made the best derailleurs. They worked better than any other company's derailleurs- based on the slant parallelogram design patent, it kept the upper pulley closer to the cogs.

Suntour was busy chasing ATB/MTB technology. The 3 pulley derailleurs were a solution of getting a huge amount of chain wrap on a relatively short cage arm. It's a great idea, it works great. You'd have to have an arm a full inch longer to wrap as much chain as a 3 pulley can, and that inch longer cage will bump against rocks and sticks and stuff and go out of alignment much more readily.

However, while Suntour was figuring out how to go over rocks, Shimano was developing clicky shifting.

That little nut on the back of the upper pulley is kind of rounded, so you kind of need a wrench rather than a socket.




I wish I had taken a picture before taking it apart, as I didn't realize just how odd/rare these are at the time. I'm pretty sure when I disassembled mine, it was big cog - little cog - big cog. But after looking at pictures it seems most have it big cog - big cog - little cog, which one is right?
My chain was also wrapped different then both your pics, but the only pics I can find is from other people who are not using the bottom cog either.

Would you know what year Nishiki used these on their roadbikes?
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Old 07-04-16, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Well let me chime in. Today I took my modern carbon fiber Scott CR1 Pro out for a century ride. The exact same route I did last week on my steel mid 90s Giordana Superleggero. Last week I finished with my usual foot pain but was otherwise totally fresh and ready for more miles. This despite not getting enough water and carbs in me during the ride. But this week I hydrated better and got a lot more carbs in me during the ride. But the Scott beat the crap out of me physically. By mile 75 I was very sore all over, wore out, and wanted to quit. The final miles sucked. That is precisely way I prefer vintage.
I have the opposite experience, new-to-me this year is a 2011 roubaix and my previous "go fast road bike" was a late 80s columbus tubed Miele road bike. Both of them now have mavic open pro wheels with ultegra hubs. The ride on the Miele is just harsh compared to riding the Roubaix. Both the bikes now wear vittoria open corsa G+ tires, albeit 28s on the Spesh and 25s on the Miele. I did a 300km brevet last year on the Miele in 17:35 and this year I finished it in 15:05 and felt better after the effort too, but last year I was riding on schwalbe durano tires so I guess it's not an equal comparison.

I still love my vintage steel bikes, but I am definitely under the spell of teh carbon now.
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Old 07-04-16, 04:22 PM
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As far as bikes... there have been both spectacularly nice bikes, as well as shoddy bikes for decades.

The BMX bikes have a lot of competition from China and Taiwan, with many of them selling new for under $100. It is hard to build a complete set of wheels for under $100. Add in tires and one is over budget. No doubt this competition trickles into the high-end bikes.

As far as road bikes. Quality road bikes from the 1960's to 1980's weighed 22 to 23 lbs or so. A "modern" road bike might cut that down to 15 to 19 pounds or so. However, there are a lot of bikes, especially cheaper aluminum frame bikes that hit almost the same as the 1960's bikes weighed.

Components are different. I can't say if they are better or worse, but I do like my new brifters and brakes that can send me flying if I'm not paying attention.

And the cheap "road" bikes are still CHEAP
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Old 07-04-16, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by D1andonlyDman
I should have specified that my comment about Sora being functionally identical to the higher end 9-speed groups was specific to the derailleurs - not the shifters. I actually was specifically referring to a brand new 9 Speed Sora RD, which I installed on my Paramount instead of a used Ultegra RD after determining that it was better looking, and functionally exactly identical to the Ultegra with the same cage length.
I'd do the same.
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Old 07-04-16, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cbrstar
I wish I had taken a picture before taking it apart, as I didn't realize just how odd/rare these are at the time. I'm pretty sure when I disassembled mine, it was big cog - little cog - big cog. But after looking at pictures it seems most have it big cog - big cog - little cog, which one is right?
My chain was also wrapped different then both your pics, but the only pics I can find is from other people who are not using the bottom cog either.

Would you know what year Nishiki used these on their roadbikes?
These would have been between 1985-6.

It's upper pulley is big, middle pulley is big, farthest out pulley should be little. I just replaced all my pulleys with sealed bearing pulleys. Just because.

If you have the chain wrapped any other way than it's wrapped on mine, it's wrapped incorrectly. The little pulley is only engaged when you're in a gear where the chain is more slack- so a "small-small" gear combination where the derailleur is taking up more chain. In that pic above, where the 3rd pulley is engaged- that's in the granny small- small combination- notice, there's no chain slack at all. The pulley takes up all the chain slack from a 28-12 combination, and there's enough chain there for a 50- 32 with 47cm long chainstays.

The reason for the third pulley being little is that when you're in a "big-big" combination (not that you should be) the smaller pulley gives you a little more upward swing on the cage without getting caught on the big cog. My setup catches from time to time- because I'm not using the little pulley.





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Old 07-04-16, 09:54 PM
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It's been wrapped wrong since I got it...But I'm not surprised, as I finally got the freewheel off today and found the dust cap was missing. The old guy I used to get to fix my bike, probably wasn't doing the stellar job I thought he was lol. I also found some striped spoke nuts

The way I think I had it though was the chain wrapped on top of the bottom last cog.
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Old 07-05-16, 08:12 AM
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Direct comparison of old vs. new doesn't really apply, there's always been cheap stuff that doesn't last and never worked well to begin with. There's no denying the new technology offers wider gear ranges, better brakes, lighter frames, and when everything works, it works great. The good stuff now, though, is pretty expensive, and becomes obsolete quickly, at least drivetrain components. Compatibility is more an issue than ever, not just with gearing but bottom brackets, headsets, cockpit components.

The thing I always come back to is the aesthetics. Funny shaped black frames covered with giant logos just don't do it for me.
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Old 07-05-16, 08:32 AM
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[QUOTE And then there was the guy laughing at my "pink" bike until his older and wiser riding partner pointed out how I ran them down with no problem, LOL!

[/QUOTE]

Real men can ride Pink Bikes! Here's my Pink Titan as 1st built. Just a few months ago I swapped the carbon fork for a swap meet SLX Basso, so now it's thoroughly vintage but also modern enough with its 10 spd Ergo. Don
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Old 07-05-16, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I've got about 1500 miles on my shiny new bike with low spoke count and deep rims...so not enough to judge yet, but so far, so good. The advantage as I understand it has less to do with weight and more to do with aero profile.
Originally Posted by crank_addict
Though for the racer, vintage is out. Not even close to hanging in the fast crowd on vintage. Modern are jack rabbit climbers. Lower portions of the modern frames are highly evolved. That said, modern is often related as being throwaway bikes. Your'e not going to fix a broken ally or CF frame or fork.

Upper end (only) components from Shimano, SRAM are excellent performing - NOT the lower rank series. Campagnolo are excellent. Dialed in, are foolproof push button perfection. Same goes for longevity but don't expect serviceable parts when worn.

Vintage upper-end components have a certain charm about them, elegant simplicity, the feel and sound. Parts for older bikes are plentiful thanks to the unlimited online sources. Something thats also important in driving the demand for vintage. The best part is the ability to completely service them with very few specialty tools needed. Almost everything can be stripped and refurbished. Not so for modern components.
Originally Posted by cbrstar
I kind of understand the less spokes as we used to believe back when I was riding that less spokes = less weight, and less wind resistance. But it came at a cost, as my friend who had a low spoke set of wheels which I think where either 16 or 20. If he went off a sidewalk curb the wheel would almost taco. And one day during a race, while going down a steep incline he accidentally hit a pot hole and the front wheel taco'ed, and he got flipped over doing over 60km/hr. It ended his racing season. I'm not sure if new wheels are this bad but it's something to consider.

I'm glad you guys also brought up the stiffness. It's easy to get caught up in the lighter = easier which I had been focused on. I'm not going racing, so I need something more so for going long distances.
I think also it's a bit of my past teenage inferiority complex creeping up. As when I was in a riding club in high school, I never felt like I could quite compete completely with the members that had the super expensive ultralight bikes. I felt pretty frustrated always finishing behind them at the time, but I realize now I was blaming the bike and not myself.

I think because I've been out of the loop/sport so long that it came as a bit of a shock how much cycling has changed. Even inexpensive bottom line bikes look somewhat space age to me, but looks aren't everything. I'm going to try and keep at getting my old bikes road worthy.
Originally Posted by vinfix
Direct comparison of old vs. new doesn't really apply, there's always been cheap stuff that doesn't last and never worked well to begin with. There's no denying the new technology offers wider gear ranges, better brakes, lighter frames, and when everything works, it works great. The good stuff now, though, is pretty expensive, and becomes obsolete quickly, at least drivetrain components. Compatibility is more an issue than ever, not just with gearing but bottom brackets, headsets, cockpit components.
The business model, both for competition and consumer products, is tilting ever toward less serviceability and forward/backward compatibility, and consequently more frequent replacement, be it due to wear, breakage, or obsolescence. Looking backward past this modern-day use and dispose culture, the inherent functional beauty of all classic machinery can be discerned.
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Old 07-05-16, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by old's'cool
The business model, both for competition and consumer products, is tilting ever toward less serviceability and forward/backward compatibility, and consequently more frequent replacement, be it due to wear, breakage, or obsolescence. Looking backward past this modern-day use and dispose culture, the inherent functional beauty of all classic machinery can be discerned.
Or we're mostly cranky and FOS, modern bikes work well and the material advancements have changed some of the standards.
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Old 07-05-16, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
Or we're mostly cranky and FOS, modern bikes work well and the material advancements have changed some of the standards.
No disagreement with any of that, but it doesn't negate my premise.

Yes, standards do evolve, but apparently there's enough of a remaining population of diehard curmudgeons the likes of us, to support a supply of new, NOS, and used components sufficient to keep our fleet of out-dated contraptions running, to some extent!

Edit: The last statement includes, if necessary (not my choice currently), upgrading to modern bits (drivetrain, brakes, stems, what-have-you), so long as the frame and fork, at least, are kept in service! But I'm pretty much on-board with currently manufactured tires, cables, saddles, chains, tape... all the stuff that wears out anyway (leather saddles & tape excepted).

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Old 07-05-16, 11:37 PM
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I have to say old for me. It's not that new isn't functional, but there is something about the feel that's not entirely right.

Best way I can relate this in words is to compare how it has always been for me when shopping for a car. The newest car I own turned twenty-five this year. The older models have a sturdier feel and tend to be made with metal exteriors, real bumpers, and little to no foam in the seats. Whereas the newer cars, while still serve the same purpose, have fake bumpers, lots of exterior plastic, and foam cushioned seats that (at least where used cars are concerned) has already worn out. Then there is the bigger matter of serviceability, modern vehicles have very little in them that the average end user can figure out how to access, let alone work on. Older vehicles were designed around the philosophical model that at some point something would break and someone would need to replace or repair parts. Not to mention the old school of thought on automobiles was that the car should be capable of lasting a lifetime. Modern automotive industry corporate philosophy is that the average person will want a new car every seven to ten years, so there's no point in making a car capable of lasting longer than that.

I think in general the newer bicycles, like most newer cars, tend to have great aesthetic appeal... but there's just that lingering question in the back of my mind about the durable longevity. The surviving older bikes have been tried and proven, their designs, composition of materials, and manufacturing methods are the results of decades of applied trial and error results. But a lot of the newer bikes with their fancy aesthetics are built upon designs some person (likely a millennial) with a CAD (computer assisted design) program came up with in an office somewhere and then e-mailed off to a sweat shop in China to mass produce... at the end of the day, that's not a comforting thought for many reasons.
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Old 07-06-16, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by cbrstar
It's been wrapped wrong since I got it...But I'm not surprised, as I finally got the freewheel off today and found the dust cap was missing. The old guy I used to get to fix my bike, probably wasn't doing the stellar job I thought he was lol. I also found some striped spoke nuts

The way I think I had it though was the chain wrapped on top of the bottom last cog.
Have you gotten it put back together yet?

Let me know if you need pix or anything.

The 3 pulley XC derailleur is really one of the nicest shifting derailleurs I've used. And I play with them all the time.
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Old 07-07-16, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy
Have you gotten it put back together yet?

Let me know if you need pix or anything.

The 3 pulley XC derailleur is really one of the nicest shifting derailleurs I've used. And I play with them all the time.
Sorry for the late reply, I couldn't find my own thread lol.

I've got it back together, and I also pulled apart my Suntour a3000. One question I have is how many times do you wind them up? Or do you turn it backwards just enough to replace the stopper screw?

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it.
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Old 07-07-16, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cbrstar
Sorry for the late reply, I couldn't find my own thread lol.

I've got it back together, and I also pulled apart my Suntour a3000. One question I have is how many times do you wind them up? Or do you turn it backwards just enough to replace the stopper screw?

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it.
I just twist it back far enough to pull it past the stopper screw and insert that. It doesn't need a whole lot of tension- just enough to keep the slack, unused chain from bouncing around, and when the cogs need more chain, the arm should pull forward and allow more chain to be used.

I'm going to go take some pix of the XC on my 720 with the Bullseye pulleys on... I've been meaning to. It's way past my bedtime...
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Old 07-07-16, 10:53 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

I'm going to go take some pix of the XC on my 720 with the Bullseye pulleys on... I've been meaning to.
So here's some pix of the Suntour XC triple pulley RD- with the over the top Bullseye pulleys.

Middle chainring- 5th of 6 cogs in the rear:




And here's the bike in the middle chainring, in the smallest rear cog. You, of course, notice the two red Bullseye pulleys, but you may not notice, until your attention is called to it- speaking of the over the top Bullseye pulleys... the outrageously over the top upper jockey pulley is also a grey Bullseye pulley.

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