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-   -   2002 Lemond, Mystery Waterford (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1072427-2002-lemond-mystery-waterford.html)

Simon G 07-14-16 11:32 AM

2002 Lemond, Mystery Waterford
 
6 Attachment(s)
Hello all, my name is Simon I have two bikes I would like to inquire about today.

The first bike is my personal "Nice" Bike, this being my 2002 Lemond Maillot Jaune. I got it about six months ago off Craigslist, for quite a steal. The only problem being that it had a seized seat post, knowing this I went ahead and bought it. That was quite a battle but after a week of very delicate sawing I was able to crush the seat post, and remove it form the frame. All without damaging the frame at all! She's been road ready and riding hard for the entirety of the season, here in central IL. It's full Dura Ace 7700, and Reynolds 853 tubing. Only quip I can raise is that it has a Reynolds carbon fork.

The second bike in questions is a Waterford Precision Cycles, which I know much less about. This bicycle has come to me much more recently, the beginning of this week. I was searching through my SO garage and was allowed to keep it and tune it up, for the time being. I found much less info on this bike than I was hoping to. Here's what I know: It is stamped "1150" on the top tube of the bike, and other than that not much. It's full steel tubing, with a full Campagnolo Veloce groupset. Id say the bike is a late 90's model but I really don't know.

For both these bikes, if anyone has any information, it'd be greatly appreciated. Any info goes a long way, and will help my research. I'm just trying to fully understand what I have sitting in my bedroom, not looking for an appraisal but if you have a good guess feel free to let me know.

Thanks much

Darth Lefty 07-14-16 11:48 AM

Nice bikes, indeed!

The Lemonds were good quality, made by Trek. You have one of the higher models. There's one higher model that year but it's titanium.
2002 LeMond Maillot Jaune - BikePedia

Waterford is descended from Schwinn's custom shop, who made the Paramount racing bikes. So it's a made-to-order frame. You can visit their website and it may tell you more about your bike, or you can contact them.

Simon G 07-14-16 12:47 PM

Thank you,

So would the Lemond have been marketed as a race oriented bike? And would it have been a fairly competitive one for the day?

Darth Lefty 07-14-16 12:56 PM

Yes, it's a racing bike. It's probably about as good as mass-market steel frames ever got. By that time carbon fiber was on the market and displacing aluminum, and Lance had supplanted Greg in the public imagination.
Same year... 2002 Trek 5900 USPS - BikePedia
There's a writeup about "Lemond geometry" here http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek-Fis...nualLemond.pdf

qcpmsame 07-14-16 05:32 PM

Welcome to the forums, Simon, nice looking rides there. Ride 'em and enjoy 'em.

Bill

Scooper 07-14-16 06:17 PM

The serial number of the Waterford should be on the bottom of the BB shell, and should begin with a letter (the month the frame was built), followed by two digits (the last two digits of the year the frame was built), followed by three digits indicating the sequence number of the frame built that month.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...psa9a21c56.jpg

B07014 was the 14th frame scheduled for production during February, 2007.

A=Jan
B=Feb
C=Mar
D=Apr
E=May
F=Jun
G=Jul
H=Aug
I=Not Used
J=Sep
K=Oct
L=Nov
M=Dec

The Waterford model should be indicated by a seat tube decal.

Simon G 07-15-16 04:26 PM

Thank you for the warm welcome, and thank you for the Lemond Geometry reading. It was more than helpful.

Regarding the Waterford, it has serial number A97048. Which I can extrapolate to imply it was built in January of 1997. It's quite an impressive bicycle with the full campy, something out of this world on any sort of negative inclination.

Furthermore, I was in contact with the team at Waterford, and got and email back from them. They said the 1150, this was the model, was an "The 1150 was an entry level Road Sport style frame from the late 1990's." and was sold as a frameset. All very interesting!

TYVM,

Simon

McBTC 07-15-16 04:55 PM

Probably not the OEM fork on the Lemond as the paint scheme is off... should be yellow.

DMC707 07-15-16 04:59 PM


Originally Posted by Simon G (Post 18915171)
Thank you for the warm welcome, and thank you for the Lemond Geometry reading. It was more than helpful.

Regarding the Waterford, it has serial number A97048. Which I can extrapolate to imply it was built in January of 1997. It's quite an impressive bicycle with the full campy, something out of this world on any sort of negative inclination.

Furthermore, I was in contact with the team at Waterford, and got and email back from them. They said the 1150, this was the model, was an "The 1150 was an entry level Road Sport style frame from the late 1990's." and was sold as a frameset. All very interesting!

TYVM,

Simon

The Waterford is quite lovely

Interesting they refer to it as "entry level" -- their most basic framesets were Reynolds 531, - pretty nice stuff ! I would guess that is what yours is

Waterford is Richard Schwinn's spin-off company after Schwinn was bought out and slowly let the Paramount line die out - (that may be over-simplifying it )
I have a Waterford track bike and I consider it a modern incarnation of the great stuff churned out by the Paramount custom shop

The Lemond looks like it is a big frame , you may be happier with it with a shorter stem , which would allow you to slide the seat back to a normal position -- with the seat forward like that , it puts you a bit too far over the bottom bracket (but then again, GReg Lemond's fit philosophy was to use longish top tubes also )

Andy_K 07-15-16 06:45 PM


Originally Posted by Darth Lefty (Post 18912277)
There's a writeup about "Lemond geometry" here http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek-Fis...nualLemond.pdf

According to the 2001 LeMond catalog my 55cm Buenos Aires has 73.5 degree head tube and 73 degree seat tube angles. Were those really considered "reduced" angles? I've only got one bike with a steeper head tube angle and the seat tube is only half a degree off of what most of my other bikes have. And 415mm is a "longer" chain stay?

Apparently I have a skewed view of normal.

Darth Lefty 07-15-16 10:40 PM


Originally Posted by Andy_K (Post 18915408)
According to the 2001 LeMond catalog my 55cm Buenos Aires has 73.5 degree head tube and 73 degree seat tube angles. Were those really considered "reduced" angles? I've only got one bike with a steeper head tube angle and the seat tube is only half a degree off of what most of my other bikes have. And 415mm is a "longer" chain stay?

Apparently I have a skewed view of normal.

According to a similar pdf on the same site, the OCLV bikes that year were a little steeper, and appear about a size smaller at a listed frame size.

http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek-Fis...manualTrek.pdf

Scooper 07-15-16 11:15 PM

The Waterford 1150 used Reynolds 531 OS tubing and had Road Sport geometry similar to the current RS-22. The 1150 combined the athletics of the race geometry 1100 with the comfort of a classic road touring bike. The 1150 included rear dropout eyelets to support a rear rack for credit card touring.

I own a 2007 RS-22, and it is light, fast, has predictable stable handling, and is comfortable for long rides. You'll love it.

Mobile 155 07-15-16 11:28 PM


Originally Posted by Simon G (Post 18912025)
Hello all, my name is Simon I have two bikes I would like to inquire about today.

The first bike is my personal "Nice" Bike, this being my 2002 Lemond Maillot Jaune. I got it about six months ago off Craigslist, for quite a steal. The only problem being that it had a seized seat post, knowing this I went ahead and bought it. That was quite a battle but after a week of very delicate sawing I was able to crush the seat post, and remove it form the frame. All without damaging the frame at all! She's been road ready and riding hard for the entirety of the season, here in central IL. It's full Dura Ace 7700, and Reynolds 853 tubing. Only quip I can raise is that it has a Reynolds carbon fork.

The second bike in questions is a Waterford Precision Cycles, which I know much less about. This bicycle has come to me much more recently, the beginning of this week. I was searching through my SO garage and was allowed to keep it and tune it up, for the time being. I found much less info on this bike than I was hoping to. Here's what I know: It is stamped "1150" on the top tube of the bike, and other than that not much. It's full steel tubing, with a full Campagnolo Veloce groupset. Id say the bike is a late 90's model but I really don't know.

For both these bikes, if anyone has any information, it'd be greatly appreciated. Any info goes a long way, and will help my research. I'm just trying to fully understand what I have sitting in my bedroom, not looking for an appraisal but if you have a good guess feel free to let me know.

Thanks much

By 1998 Steel was pretty much a thing of the past in Grand tour racing. 1994 was the last year a steel bike won the TDF. 1998 was the last time a non carbon fiber bike won the tour, Marco Pantani's Bianchi Mega Pro XL Reparto Corse, a custom-built aluminum frame. Just for FYI 101 Years of Tour de France Bikes Map the Evolution of Cycling

DMC707 07-16-16 12:23 AM


Originally Posted by Mobile 155 (Post 18915775)
By 1998 Steel was pretty much a thing of the past in Grand tour racing. 1994 was the last year a steel bike won the TDF. 1998 was the last time a non carbon fiber bike won the tour, Marco Pantani's Bianchi Mega Pro XL Reparto Corse, a custom-built aluminum frame. Just for FYI 101 Years of Tour de France Bikes Map the Evolution of Cycling


And this has what to do with the bikes in question? -- That Hinault, Merckx, Indurain or Armstrong didn't ride them to victory in Le'Tour?

--- When I go swim at the Y, I don't wear the same swimsuit as a national class competitor does either

Mobile 155 07-16-16 09:38 AM


Originally Posted by DMC707 (Post 18915807)
And this has what to do with the bikes in question? -- That Hinault, Merckx, Indurain or Armstrong didn't ride them to victory in Le'Tour?

--- When I go swim at the Y, I don't wear the same swimsuit as a national class competitor does either

Because of the question in post #3.
"Thank you,

So would the Lemond have been marketed as a race oriented bike? And would it have been a fairly competitive one for the day?"

He asked a question about if it would have been race competitive and I provided perspective of the time period. He can draw his own conclusion from the link.

Simon G 07-16-16 09:41 AM


Originally Posted by McBTC (Post 18915223)
Probably not the OEM fork on the Lemond as the paint scheme is off... should be yellow.

Yeah, I feel somewhat uncomfortable riding on that Reynolds Carbon fork all the time. I would love to find an original fork, or for that matter a replacement steel fork.

Simon G 07-16-16 09:46 AM


Originally Posted by DMC707 (Post 18915234)
I have a Waterford track bike and I consider it a modern incarnation of the great stuff churned out by the Paramount custom shop

The Lemond looks like it is a big frame , you may be happier with it with a shorter stem , which would allow you to slide the seat back to a normal position -- with the seat forward like that , it puts you a bit too far over the bottom bracket (but then again, GReg Lemond's fit philosophy was to use longish top tubes also )

The Waterford is truly something else, it's fast, light, and holds a line very well. The triple chainring gives it some out of this world ability to be used both quickly in city and very stably over long distance at high speed. I really love it as a properly fitting road bike.

The Lemond on the other hand is a tad bit large, but the way I've outfitted it is very comfortable for me. That being said, I would be very happy to have a shorter stem and be able to shift the seat back an inch or so. Right now the riding position feels more like flying than anything else, being in a constant race tuck. Do you have any recommendations/ suggestions for a shorter stem?

Thank you kindly

Simon G 07-16-16 09:49 AM


Originally Posted by Scooper (Post 18915768)
The Waterford 1150 used Reynolds 531 OS tubing and had Road Sport geometry similar to the current RS-22. The 1150 combined the athletics of the race geometry 1100 with the comfort of a classic road touring bike. The 1150 included rear dropout eyelets to support a rear rack for credit card touring.

I own a 2007 RS-22, and it is light, fast, has predictable stable handling, and is comfortable for long rides. You'll love it.

I love the bike immensely so far, it's everything I would want in a very fast touring bike, and plenty to tear up the streets here in my little town.

I'd almost feel bad taking it over long distances for touring, but hey that's partially what it's made for. It's a beautiful bicycle and I dearly hope that I have many miles ahead of me on it.

Simon G 07-16-16 09:51 AM


Originally Posted by Mobile 155 (Post 18916202)
Because of the question in post #3.
"Thank you,

So would the Lemond have been marketed as a race oriented bike? And would it have been a fairly competitive one for the day?"

He asked a question about if it would have been race competitive and I provided perspective of the time period. He can draw his own conclusion from the link.

While it's not the most professionally competitive these days. It's still able to hold it's own against most the folk biking in my town. It's kept up with its fair share of modern carbon Di2 bikes.

DMC707 07-16-16 10:33 AM


Originally Posted by Mobile 155 (Post 18916202)
Because of the question in post #3.
"Thank you,

So would the Lemond have been marketed as a race oriented bike? And would it have been a fairly competitive one for the day?"

He asked a question about if it would have been race competitive and I provided perspective of the time period. He can draw his own conclusion from the link.


Ok, thats just not the question you linked to with a quote is all.

For the day, and for anything else outside the boundaries of professional road racing, I would say that yes, those would have been competitive race machines at the local level in whatever category you were riding in up to perhaps 2005. Around that time is when 16 lb carbon bikes were getting more and more affordable , and the average Joe Blow Cat 3 or 4 could justify adding one to the stable
-- this was the true death of steel for racing, not some euro pro's racing up the Alps a decade earlier


The Waterford does have a more sportive oriented build though and likely wasnt intended for racing originally, (not the frame, the frame can do it, - but bikes built solelly for racing generally arent built with a triple)

I agree that today, -- you have to have a bit of chutzpah to show at the local Tuesday night crits on a steel machine, - because the field is a sea of black bikes, but if your strong enough to stay in the field, why not? And with a set of deep section wheels, you'll make up some lost watts when its time to take a pull


I grew up racing in the 90's and saw all the trends start cycling through -- aluminum, Ti, early bonded CF, early OCLV, the early sloping TT bikes from Giant -- it was all good fun and a guy could really get caught up in trying to stay abreast of the latest and greatest trends ---- until you realize that you are still getting dropped by plenty of people riding conventional steel

Today there are plenty of guys on 14 lb $8000 machines asking similar questions of themselves when they get dropped by guys on entry level 105 equipped carbon machines ---
The materials have changed a little, but racing is the same

Mobile 155 07-16-16 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by DMC707 (Post 18916260)
Ok, thats just not the question you linked to with a quote is all.

For the day, and for anything else outside the boundaries of professional road racing, I would say that yes, those would have been competitive race machines at the local level in whatever category you were riding in up to perhaps 2005. Around that time is when 16 lb carbon bikes were getting more and more affordable , and the average Joe Blow Cat 3 or 4 could justify adding one to the stable
-- this was the true death of steel for racing, not some euro pro's racing up the Alps a decade earlier


The Waterford does have a more sportive oriented build though and likely wasnt intended for racing originally, (not the frame, the frame can do it, - but bikes built solelly for racing generally arent built with a triple)

I agree that today, -- you have to have a bit of chutzpah to show at the local Tuesday night crits on a steel machine, - because the field is a sea of black bikes, but if your strong enough to stay in the field, why not? And with a set of deep section wheels, you'll make up some lost watts when its time to take a pull


I grew up racing in the 90's and saw all the trends start cycling through -- aluminum, Ti, early bonded CF, early OCLV, the early sloping TT bikes from Giant -- it was all good fun and a guy could really get caught up in trying to stay abreast of the latest and greatest trends ---- until you realize that you are still getting dropped by plenty of people riding conventional steel

Today there are plenty of guys on 14 lb $8000 machines asking similar questions of themselves when they get dropped by guys on entry level 105 equipped carbon machines ---
The materials have changed a little, but racing is the same

I was just keying off of the subject of the two questions with Racing and competitive being the focus. It was not a judgement call but simply a opportunity to give the history of what racing and competitive was during the time that Lamond was marketed.

It wasn't to debate the bike only to inform.

Even today in Crit races I see a few steel bikes in Cat 5 abd sometimes Cat 4 racing because that is where the most crashes seem to happen.

Today some companies like Cannondale are producing hydro formed aluminum Crit bikes that are 1x11s. More than likely to address some of the same issues you mentioned. After all most Crits don't require anything but the big chainring.

Maybe I should have kept the information to myself because I have made this mistake before. I have a Friend that bought a 2002 Trek 5200 USPS road bike. He was told it was a TDF team bike just like Lance used. At the time he was new to road bikes and I made the mistake of pointing out that Lances bike was. 5900 with Dura Ace. Both my friend and the seller got very defensive and I simply dropped the subject. He has since moved on to a Wilier but we still never talk about the 5200.

DMC707 07-16-16 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by Mobile 155 (Post 18916436)
I was just keying off of the subject of the two questions with Racing and competitive being the focus. It was not a judgement call but simply a opportunity to give the history of what racing and competitive was during the time that Lamond was marketed.

It wasn't to debate the bike only to inform.

.


I gotcha ---

I personally look at hard core pro racing and USAC cat 1-5 and citizens racing as 2 separate animals.

I know the lines can get blurred a bit with some of the Cat 1-2's out there, but for the rest of us, (and this is what makes cycling great) - its still the legs and lungs primarily so long as we show up with a reasonably well sorted and well maintained machine.

But the thing that moves the industry is all the Cat 4 and 5 guys (and Cat 6 town line sprint heroes :thumb:) who clamor to buy late model kit, - (but who would do just as good -- or bad - on the machine they had back in '98 )

I'm not immune to the hubbub , -- I have actually contemplated purchasing one of those alloy Specialized crit frames - they are screaming bargains if that's what a guy is into -- and I recently have embarked on a bit of weight weenie-ism figuring out how to lose a few ounces off my late model carbon bike

I know this isn't what this thread was about --- but on a personal level when I show up at a local event on my recently restored DeBernardi or Pinarello , -- people stop what they're doing to come check it out - and later in the day seem surprised that such old machinery can even "keep up" -- but in the event I do get spit out the back in a crit, I know full well its the 9 beers I had the night before that are to blame more than the bike
-- A bit like making a conscious choice to drive a '72 Corvette roadster as opposed to driving a new one

Mobile 155 07-16-16 04:43 PM


Originally Posted by DMC707 (Post 18916615)
I gotcha ---

I personally look at hard core pro racing and USAC cat 1-5 and citizens racing as 2 separate animals.

I know the lines can get blurred a bit with some of the Cat 1-2's out there, but for the rest of us, (and this is what makes cycling great) - its still the legs and lungs primarily so long as we show up with a reasonably well sorted and well maintained machine.

But the thing that moves the industry is all the Cat 4 and 5 guys (and Cat 6 town line sprint heroes :thumb:) who clamor to buy late model kit, - (but who would do just as good -- or bad - on the machine they had back in '98 )

I'm not immune to the hubbub , -- I have actually contemplated purchasing one of those alloy Specialized crit frames - they are screaming bargains if that's what a guy is into -- and I recently have embarked on a bit of weight weenie-ism figuring out how to lose a few ounces off my late model carbon bike

I know this isn't what this thread was about --- but on a personal level when I show up at a local event on my recently restored DeBernardi or Pinarello , -- people stop what they're doing to come check it out - and later in the day seem surprised that such old machinery can even "keep up" -- but in the event I do get spit out the back in a crit, I know full well its the 9 beers I had the night before that are to blame more than the bike
-- A bit like making a conscious choice to drive a '72 Corvette roadster as opposed to driving a new one

Well we are listening to the same music more or less. As I said I have gone to a lot of Crits and have seen bikes change.

I haven't been in a race since 2011 with the Furnace Creek 508.


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