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Raleigh Hate
I'm usually not a negative person, and I hate to rain on others' parade, but why are old Raleighs so revered?
I worked in a Raleigh store in 1974, and the quality of the bikes was abysmal! Remember, that was a dark era for England with the brown-outs and multiple strikes. Almost every Raleigh we assembled had some sort of issue. The common ones were having to shim the seat post to get it tight or having to add a spacer behind the freewheel because of frame misalignment. So today, even though I love looking at old Raleighs, my past experience with them colors my opinion of them. Has anyone else noticed many flaws with mid 70s Raleighs? |
I worked at a shop from 1982-1985 that sold the consumer Raleighs. A couple of top sellers were OK to build up, but one (Rapide, I think) was a nightmare. Aside from the crappy components, sometimes the forks were misaligned. Granted, these were not "real" Raleighs.
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That was my experience,too. The cheap "Rampar" bikes were actually much better built.
On this site, everyone seems to love Raleighs so...Asking if old Raleigh Records can make good touring bikes....Good Lord, no!.... |
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...those bikes you remember have all either been landfilled or fixed and realigned by now. :) |
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...how could you not :love: this ? |
For me it's generational. I like Raleigh's because I had one as a kid in the 70s so having a Raleigh Grand Prix now is undoubtedly trying to relive my youth. It's an honest bike and I'll always like them. By the 80s the later ones which you refer to as the American Raleighs weren't available in Australia so don't have the same connection with those.
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
(Post 18986918)
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...those bikes you remember have all either been landfilled or fixed and realigned by now. :) To me it seems like an issue with their quality control person. The sloppy brazing and finishing work is a problem that could have been easily avoided. The inconsistency with what decals were present intrigued me as mine was missing the chain stay and top tube decals with no sign of them ever being applied in the first place. Their main redeeming qualities to me are the more relaxed geometry of early 70's models and the bronze green paint jobs on the international and super course. Really the only reason I picked up mine at all was because I needed a British bike in my collection, it was double butted 531, and it was cheap. |
Originally Posted by bassogap
(Post 18986866)
I'm usually not a negative person, and I hate to rain on others' parade, but why are old Raleighs so revered?
I worked in a Raleigh store in 1974, and the quality of the bikes was abysmal! Remember, that was a dark era for England with the brown-outs and multiple strikes. Almost every Raleigh we assembled had some sort of issue. The common ones were having to shim the seat post to get it tight or having to add a spacer behind the freewheel because of frame misalignment. So today, even though I love looking at old Raleighs, my past experience with them colors my opinion of them. Has anyone else noticed many flaws with mid 70s Raleighs? I also saw a Falcon with 531 tubes and campagnolo mechanicals that was even more horrid. There was a a gap in the headtube/top tube lug. |
I love them- have a couple of 3 spd sturmey archer cruisers - a Sports, and a Courier. Also have a Raleigh Record converted to a city bike (10 spd). But that being said, I wouldn't pick a Raleigh for Saturday morning hammerfests group rides. : D. They are cool bikes for what they are- leisurely cruisers for grabbing coffee or biscuits.
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Originally Posted by spock345
(Post 18986973)
To me it seems like an issue with their quality control person.
It was Schwinn that led the way w/ contracted production by Panasonic in Japan for the World and Approved models. Straight, well spec'd w/ modern components and nicely/durably finished in contemporary colors they could be assembled in 1/2 the time of any Euro bike w/o any warranty claims. Better yet, the customers loved them. Post WWII Japanese industry, including the bicycle industry, became devotes of W. Edwards Deming, the "Father of Quality" while Euro industry descended into a fatal death spiral of lousy management, lack of QA/QC and industrial unrest. That being said I still ride my '74 Carlton built International regularly in it's 42nd year of service, a great traditional British club riders' machine then/now. -Bandera |
Because they weren't a Varsity. That's the one I don't get.
They fit, they worked. My 40-y-o Raleigh is my fit benchmark. Whenever I build a bike, I begin by taking reach measurements from my Raleigh. In 1980, when I tried to buy my wife a Univega mixte, she wouldn't have any part of it - she wanted a Raleigh with paint that matched mine. The only flaws on mine were the paint was weak in spots, and never liked the decal scheme, but fixed that. They were all Carlton geometry, and it works. Go on any tour, and you see a lot of people riding loaded old Grand Prix. People hunt them down to build them into tour bikes. I've easily put 40,000 mi on mine, and still ride it 1500 mi/yr. They're here to stay. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...aaP4090002.jpg They're also the ultimate nostalgia bike. Everybody's dad or uncle had one. Mine starts a conversation at every rest stop, has a fan club in my riding group, and at the local Frankenbike. When I ride another bike to the group, people ask about my Raleigh. Across America on a $100 Bike By Brendan Leonard When a friend of mine asked if I’d like to bicycle across the country with him, I knew which bike I was going to take: the one I rode to work every day. A few of my friends own four to seven bikes apiece. Not me. I live in a small apartment and I don’t mountain bike, so when I open my front door, I don’t have to decide which bike to wheel out. I only ride one. I’m a monogamist. Many of us in central Denver ride a similar type of bicycle: Steel frame, lugged, mostly mismatched components, sometimes a classic paint job, sometimes not, usually purchased from an ad on CraigsList for $200 or $300. My bike is the one with the dings in the paint job, chained to the railing out in front of the coffee shop, too ugly to steal, but protected by a four-pound chain lock. I ride everyday, everywhere. I like to race cars downtown, go for night jaunts on our finally-calm bike paths, and sometimes ride the 20 miles out to Golden to ride up Lookout Mountain alongside the folks who drive their road bikes to the parking lot at the start of the climb. I ride in mountain bike shoes and rolled-up jeans, and swear by Continental Gator Skins in the city. That August, when we started to plan our cross-country ride to start the following February, I was on a steel cyclocross frame, which would have been great for touring. But then a guy backed his Accord out of a blind parking spot in an alley when I was riding too fast, and I went over the back of his car, crumpling my frame. I had a crisis on my hands. I frantically searched CraigsList for days, until one Sunday, there it was: “1985 Raleigh Team USA - $100.” I called, got five crisp $20 bills, and raced out to the suburbs to rescue the beat-up old racing rig from a guy’s dusty garage. If you Google things like “How to choose a touring bicycle,” you’ll run across all kinds of advice on geometry, wheels, frame materials, comfort, how you should carry all your gear, and more. I made my choice based on two criteria: 1. The bike was made of lugged steel. 2. It said “Team USA” on the top tube, and was red and blue with white stars on the fork. I was in love. I swapped out all the 1985 components and wheels, using parts from my old bike or stuff I had laying around my apartment. Then I rode it to work, and the coffee shop. It was too long. I put on a taller stem and moustache bars, but kept black handlebar tape to keep with the original Team USA color scheme. My friends looked at it and smiled, happy for me, but not interested in the bike. It was beauty in the eye of the beholder, bike snob style. I put it on a trainer a few times, to get in some miles during an unusually cold January. I went over the dings in the paint job with clear fingernail polish. I put a double water bottle cage on the seatpost -- the frame only had mounts for one cage. I learned to ride with a BOB Trailer hooked to the back, taking laps around my neighborhood park with a pile of gear in the back. We started in San Diego the first week of February, picking our bikes up at Bernie’s Bike Shop in Ocean Beach. There was no turning back once we dipped our wheels in the Pacific and started to pedal east. I was putting my money where my mouth was about American steel bicycles, staring at 3,100 miles of pavement and betting on a 25-year-old bike that was built when I was in the first grade, watching Willie Nelson and Stevie Wonder sing “We Are the World” on MTV, and Marty McFly travel “Back to the Future” in a DeLorean. Now, I was already seeing wrinkles on my face when I looked in the mirror -- how was that old steel frame holding up, underneath the patriotic paint job? We rode, quickly building to 70 or 80 miles a day. Curious locals chatted us up at every stop, every convenience store and greasy spoon across California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida. I proudly told everyone we met about my $100 bike, and not a single person cared. Three thousand-some miles, hundreds of conversations, and not even a “Wow, really?” from anyone. Raleigh didn’t care enough to respond when I sent them an e-mail about our trip. By pure coincidence, the mechanic who overhauled my bottom bracket in Austin, Texas, actually worked as a traveling tech for the current Team USA, and even he couldn’t scare up a smile. My pal Tony beat me to the top of every single climb, atop his custom titanium rig, a bike that started more than a few conversations with admirers. I didn’t even know how much a bike like his cost until some guy at a convenience store in Florida announced that bike like that retail for a price 50 times the cost of my Raleigh. I rolled the Raleigh onto the beach in St. Augustine, Fla., a handful of minor mechanicals behind me, but nothing to shake my faith in steel. Before it all started, I had daydreamed that our journey would be a great statement about American consumption, recycling, our throwaway society, something. An everyday guy riding an everyday bike thousands of miles, proving that you don’t have to be Lance Armstrong to do it. Alas, nothing. In the end, it was pretty much as heroic as riding to work every day. Which, any avid bike commuter will tell you, is unremarkable to the outside observer. Back in Denver, I stripped off the water bottle cages and the fenders, put on a new chain and some new brake cables, and rolled up my pant legs for another unremarkable ride to the office. No one noticed, but I sure had fun. ### you can also badmouth their forks, but they're revered. And they continuously made bicycles in Nottingham for 100 years. |
Originally Posted by bulldog1935
(Post 18987095)
Because they weren't a Varsity. That's the one I don't get.
When the production run was finally over, the Schwinn Varsity had been manufactured in greater numbers than any other single model of derailer-geared bike in the world ever. Built with unique technology to meet an entry-level price point, it was the only bike in the national market in the 1960s that was simultaneously inexpensive enough to get non-cycling adults to give it a try, and well-built enough to make them conclude, "Hey, this is fun!" The Varsity was the foundation of reintroducing American adults to the joys of cycling and a cornerstone in building the modern adult cycling infrastructure of events, clothing, magazines, clubs, businesses, etc... The Varsity is the single most significant American bicycle. The Schwinn Varsity (1960-1986) From my perspective it paid the bills and satisfied my customer's requirements in our shop "back when". If a more esoteric machine was required we could Fix You Right On Up to the limits of your desire/ability to pay for it. :love: -Bandera |
the late Sheldon can have them all - people complain about the weight of GP, but they're 15 lbs lighter than a Varsity - that's a whole bike.
But do you still ride it? |
Raleigh quality in the 70's was quite variable.
Gitane (at the lower price points was consistent for being worse) If you read the history of Raleigh book, it is quite clear the struggles that played out on the sales floor. |
My first experience with a Raleigh was a Rapide, and it was an abysmal bike.
My second experience was with an R700 aluminum model, for a friend. It's pretty, let's put it at that. After working on the Racing USA Series, I've come to like them for the approach, though they were not competitive. All that aside, I just picked up a 1959 Sport in very good shape, with a dyno front, and all original except tires. It weighs about as much as my car, and will take about as long to restore, with no efficient use going forward that I can see, but it's kind of cool. I did recommend a carbon Raleigh to a guy I don't particularly care for, so if it's good, fine. If not, fine. The jury is still out on my end, though the 531 1986 models seem right in line with what else was out there at the same price, at the time. The OP is right, though, people sure like them. |
Like anything else...branding. In this case a lot of nostalgia. The heron is a pretty dang cool emblem, and the crank chain ring with the Heron is just style.
They often seem to go over value of comparable, better bikes with less name recognition. My Raleigh International was the single turdiest, most careless, quality control fail I've ever seen...and the others I've seen close up haven't been that impressive either. The Competition and Professionals usually seem nicer than the Internationals. I still can't help but to like Raleigh, my very first bike was a Raleigh BMX Black Burner, and my dad rode a 1954 Raleigh Sport. Obviously SBDU is a different animal entirely. |
Originally Posted by bassogap
(Post 18986866)
I'm usually not a negative person, and I hate to rain on others' parade, but why are old Raleighs so revered?
Has anyone else noticed many flaws with mid 70s Raleighs?
Originally Posted by Eric S.
(Post 18986876)
I worked at a shop from 1982-1985 that sold the consumer Raleighs. A couple of top sellers were OK to build up, but one (Rapide, I think) was a nightmare. Aside from the crappy components, sometimes the forks were misaligned.
Originally Posted by spock345
(Post 18986973)
I ended up fixing a bunch of problems on my competition just because I like how the frame rides. The biggest glaring issues were messy brazing (fixed with some filing), misaligned dropouts (mostly fixed now, the rear ones are still a bit wonky), and a seat stay cap missing sufficient braze to stay on the bike (not a structural issue, brazed back into place). To me it seems like an issue with their quality control person. The sloppy brazing and finishing work is a problem that could have been easily avoided. Their main redeeming qualities to me are the more relaxed geometry of early 70's models and the bronze green paint jobs on the international and super course.
Originally Posted by Bandera
(Post 18987072)
We had the same issue w/ all of the Euro brands that we sold during The Boom, with the exception of most Motobecane production. The general lack of QC/QA and the Euro brands "take it or leave it" attitude led to our "Leave It" decision as we replaced them all w/ Japanese production by the mid-late '70's.
It was Schwinn that led the way w/ contracted production by Panasonic in Japan for the World and Approved models. Straight, well spec'd w/ modern components and nicely/durably finished in contemporary colors they could be assembled in 1/2 the time of any Euro bike w/o any warranty claims. Better yet, the customers loved them. That being said I still ride my '74 Carlton built International regularly in it's 42nd year of service, a great traditional British club riders' machine then/now. -Bandera
Originally Posted by repechage
(Post 18987172)
Raleigh quality in the 70's was quite variable...If you read the history of Raleigh book, it is quite clear the struggles that played out on the sales floor.
But for some reason, everything from the Super Course on up rode great! Maybe I like 'em because they where the brand I wanted when I was younger. They're the bicycle equivalent of an MG/MGB/Triumph sports car of the same era - same issues. |
Originally Posted by bulldog1935
(Post 18987151)
the late Sheldon can have them all - people complain about the weight of GP, but they're 15 lbs lighter than a Varsity - that's a whole bike.
Since all were used/enjoyed (or at least paid for and stashed in garages ) by our people/customers from Pixies to Pinarellos none were complained about by their owners "back when" that I can recall. Folk seemed then as now to know what their Requirements were (except for the guy who bought the Hi-E, Weyless equipped Alan when Teledyne Titans were available six weeks later)......:eek: -Bandera |
where did you work? My wife's bike (then) came from Cothron's in Austin - I think they were on S. 1st or Congress - long gone.
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In honor of that wonderful story about the Team USA:
http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/128815849.jpg I got two for a good price but they didn't fit right and I moved them on. |
Originally Posted by bulldog1935
(Post 18987213)
where did you work? My wife's bike (then) came from Cothron's in Austin - I think they were on S. 1st or Congress - long gone.
In my case if addressed to me: No that was not a shop that I owned part or total ownership in although there were others that I did. PS: I didn't "work" so much as have "skin in the game" where just working isn't a how the enterprise thrives.......:twitchy: -Bandera |
got it...
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Originally Posted by Bandera
(Post 18987072)
We had the same issue w/ all of the Euro brands that we sold during The Boom, with the exception of most Motobecane production.
-Bandera |
1974 Carlton Raleigh International, Champagne color.
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I purchased my all original equipment '74 Carlton-Raleigh over 4 years ago. From 1st owner.
Everything is repacked and brake pads original - no problem squeals, nor stopping. I ride it almost everyday, about 14 miles. Campagnolo pieces, Weinmann brakes, Reynolds 531 frame, Brooks saddle, Cinelli bar & stem- nicely packaged & assembled. No problem weld areas- None.. I ride as fast as I can, my legs are getting really strong- it is a fantastic bike. It makes me feel great. When modern bike riders see the chrome lugs, they get all excited. "What's that?" |
Originally Posted by jamesdak
(Post 18987220)
In honor of that wonderful story about the Team USA:
http://www.pbase.com/jhuddle/image/128815849.jpg I got two for a good price but they didn't fit right and I moved them on. I'm glad to see this thread turn into Raleigh Love |
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