artclone

I might buy this if it is a real Japanese Centurion, but I can't find info on it anywhere. Yes, I'll be upset if anyone here buys it now that I've called attention to it. ; ). Later than the Cinelli Equipe, obviosly . . .



Does anyone know anything about this odd Centurion? Or "RT1" tubing?

Awesome BB and etc.

Vintage_Cyclist

The seller in Croatia states it was manufactured in Germany. This would point to the German Centurion company, which is still in business. Home - CENTURION Bikes

This company shared a business association with a Japanese company called Tano, which also sold Centurion bikes to WSI for the American market. At some point, the German company began developing its own bikes and obtained the right to the Centurion brand name when Tano went out of business.

That doesn't answer your question about whether this was a frame from Japan. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

The lugged steel would suggest early 90s at the latest. That bottom bracket lug is very unusual looking.

You might try writing to the German company: marketing@merida-centurion.com

I actually wrote them once to inquire about their association with WSI and they responded pretty quickly. Maybe they can give you some insight into this particular model.

artclone

Thanks! I was wondering if it was a German Centurion but didn't catch that in the ad (manufactured in: actually doesn't show in mobile view).

Odd they would use the Equipe name after already stealing Centurion. They seem to mostly make mountain bikes too. I'll email them, good idea.

Vintage_Cyclist

I think they basically obtained the trademark to Centurion because Tano went under and had it in multiple countries. By that time the WSI Centurion was already out of the picture. So the name was basically available for the taking.

Before WSI went exclusively to Diamondback (probably due to the trademark issue), they and the German company shared a lot of model names because they were both using Tano.

I'm fairly certain that frame has been on and off eBay for over a year. It looks very familiar to me.

artclone

Just ran across a similar BB on a De Rosa:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bop/5739456951.html

RobbieTunes 

I like it. I hope you get it. Nice frame, killer details, and super fork. I don't see a down side.

jetboy 

I want the centurion bike pump

T-Mar

I have never heard the story that Tano owned the Centurion name. Up until this time, the reported story was that Mitch Weiner of WSI had created the name for his bicycles after reading The New Centurions. Certainly, Tano was an early manufacturer of the USA market Centurions, but if they had in fact owned the name and WSI was only a distributor, then you would think that Tano would have been the prime manufacturer. However, we see numerous serial number formats, which is more indicative of a private label brand owned by a marketing company who contracts to various manufacturers based on tenders.

Regarding the decision to consolidate under the Diamondback brand, the timing coincides with the purchase of WSI by CBC. WSI had been marketing only nationally and CBC probaly wanted to go global, which they could not do with the Centurion brand.

Vintage_Cyclist

There's obviously some murkiness to the whole Centurion backstory, further complicated by multiple companies using the name.

I don't have the links saved, but quite some time ago, while trying to research the company, I came across old trade-mark records, registered to H. Tano Company, for the Centurion bicycle brand in both Canada and Australia.

Earlier this year, prompted by a post on this forum, I wrote to the still-existing German Centurion company to inquire if there were any connection between them and WSI. Their response:
I don't know if this is entirely accurate, given it's the reported recollection of events from 30-40 years ago, but it is an interesting angle to consider in the Centurion saga.

As far as Mitch Weiner starting the use of the Centurion name, I've read that story as well. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least that another company, like H. Tano would then go register the name in other countries, outside the US, in a predatory way.

There's another story out there about H. Tano, who was involved in making bikes for Georgena Terry's company, where Tano agreed to undercut her company by reproducing her bike design for another, larger company -- WSI.

artclone

Here's response from same Tristan . Says will look for more info when less busy. Funny he says it is "alas the German brand". Have some self-respect! ; )


"Hello,
Thanks for the question. Yes, that’s one of our frames, alas the German Centurion brand. In the pictures, there is a sticker with German writing. However there is the big possibility that the same bike was also sold in the US. The German and American Centurion bikes were – up to a certain time – ordered from the same manufacturer in Japan, and thus there has been a certain overlap in our bikes from the 70s and 80s.

Right now we have our busiest time of the year with the world’s biggest bicycling fair approaching fast. So I have a hard time reaching the persons who might know from what year exactly that bike was. So at this moment, this is all information I get get you. If you don’t hear from me in the next weeks, please remind me to go hunting for the information again.
Best wishes,
Tristan Zerdick
Marketing Assistant

MERIDA & CENTURION Germany GmbH
Blumenstraße 49-51
D-71106

Interesingly, the sole reference to this bike aside from the eBay sale is an old ShopGoodwill mention of a Futura with 26" wheels. But who knows what they measured. There's no pic, but it sounds possible one made it to the US.

Seller made me a good offer since it has indeed been listed forever. I bought it. We'll see what shape it's in when it arrives from Croatia!

artclone

Interesting read, thanks. The article claims H. Tano copied the Terry frames on the behest of Centurion. Murky relationship there between these companies indeed.

artclone

Another finned (buttressed? webbed?) bottom bracket lug, 3Rensho:

Vintage_Cyclist

It seems as if Mitch Weiner gave birth to WSI and the Centurion brand, but then used Tano as essentially a general contractor to coordinate the manufacturing of bicycles according to WSI specs. Tano may have taken advantage of the fact that the brand wasn't trademarked globally and established partnerships elsewhere, most notably with the company in Germany. Conversely, maybe there was an agreement about this between WSI and Tano.

Centurion bikes were also sold in Australia (there's an Aussie bike forum with a Centurion thread). As in Germany, the use of the Ironman Dave Scott name doesn't occur. This is probably because it was only licensed with WSI (I think that info might be attributable to T-Mar in other threads). Whether or not the Aussie bikes were WSI, the German company, Tano, or another Tano partner, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if Tano itself, or another partner were selling the bikes in Australia and elsewhere in Asia. The German company definitely has a presence there now, using that brand name, as I've seen some Australian based catalogs they've put out.

Getting back to your Centurion 'Futura' Equipe, I think the model is probably just Equipe and Futura might be a reference to a line of tubing or something else related to the brand.

Here's another Centurion/Mitch Weiner article from the LA Times back in 1986 that might be of interest. ON A ROLL: WSI, After a 1970 Start by Default, Has Been Picking Up Speed Ever Since - latimes

artclone

@Vintage_Cyclist
You may be right about the name. I did find two other google images of Centurion Futuras, one mountain bike, and one road with similar badging but Columbus tubing (!) or at least Columbus decals (image attached). Aside from the Centurion Futura decals, both are very different bikes then the one one the way.

T-Mar

Thxs for bringing our attention to this article but I find it very strange. Terry obviously feels that WSI/Tano are responsible for her original downfall but history shows that the design was almost immediately copied by another, major Asian manufacturer - Fuji. Their 450SE model hit the market in late 1985, at $329 US. With Fuji offering a proportional model, everybody else was bound to take note and monitor the sales.

By the time that Centurion brought out their Ironman Expert Women's model in 1987 all the major manufacturers had proportional models on the market, including Bianchi, Bridgestone, KHS, Miyata, Panasonic and Raleigh. Private label brands such as Lotus, Nishiki, Novara and Shogun also had proportional models by 1987 and they were even being offered by custom builders such as Serotta and Marinoni. Then there were models from Bill Boston and Proteus that actually preceded Terry's offerings.

While WSI's entry into the market segment obviously had an effect on Terry's sales, it was probably relatively small compared to that stolen by the vast array of models being offered by all the other brands in the market. Terry's sales surely would have taken a big dive in 1987, even if WSI hadn't entered the market.

Terry could have contractually protected herself from Tano building proportional models for anybody else but I doubt his would have made a substantial difference.

The other thing that I've noticed, looking back at old literature, is that Terry spec'd SunTour AccuShift in 1987, while most of the competition spec'd Shimano SIS. SunTour Accushift was a hard sell and it seems that this would be another major factor in the Terry's sales drop during this period.

artclone

@T-Mar

Convinced by your doubts re Centurion causing the downfall, but I wonder about Accushift. What was a hard sell about it? You mean because the early stuff was fiddly? You'd think the average buyer wouldn't care much whether a bike had indexed Shimano or indexed Suntour . . .

Vintage_Cyclist

The article clearly had an air of making whine with sour grapes! If you're selling something that isn't or can't be protected, you have to out perform your competitors. When Suntour's patent on the slant parallelogram derailleur was set to expire, Shimano was laying in wait to introduce their own version, quickly followed with introduction of a solid indexing system. If the guy who invented the wheel was still around, he'd be complaining about everyone stealing his idea!

There's a good article by Frank Berto called 'Sunset for Suntour' that you can probably find by googling. Gives a good blow-by-blow of the rise and fall.

T-Mar

Just like kids didn't care much whether they had an iPod or some other brand of MP3 player? 'Sunset for SunTour' goes through the history but it comes down to Shimano having a race proven, high end system that was the darling of the "yuppie" crowd. This made it instantly desirable in the lower markets and Shimano was able to trickle down the technology and gain sizeable market penetration before AccuShift even hit the streets. The technical problems with early AccuShift only confirmed what the market had already determined - that SunTour was now a distant second to Shimano.

crank_addict

Interesting frame. I assumed all Centurion's were made in Japan including for the German market.

(The exception was the one year Cinelli Equipe.)

T-Mar

Many of the late 1980s, entry level, Centurion models for the USA market were manufactured in Taiwan. In the case of a private label brand owned by a marketing company, the bicycles could be made just about anywhere. Also, don't put too much faith in country of origin decals. The domestic content regulations governing the application of these could vary substantially depending on the country and era.

artclone

Yeah, I see a lot of Taiwanese Centurions. Nice bikes. Anyone's guess where this one was made. I'm guessing this one was made in Japan but will reevaluate when it gets here . . . And bug the German company for info again. Anyone seen that brake bidge before?

The other Centurion Futura I found (above) is labelled Columbus steel, which is interesting (if true). I wonder if it is Japanese. It's totally different than mine.

@T-Mar - Do you know other major Japanese manufacturers that used Columbus besides Schwinn?

Edit: A quick Google shows Nishiki used Columbus for their higher end frames, so it's not totally unheard of.

T-Mar

Nishiki had two Columbus tubed models that I'm aware of but one was made in Italy. Circa 1983-1984, Lotus had about 5 or 6 models with Columbus tubing that were manufactured by Tsunoda of Japan. Then, for 1985 they brokered a design deal with Cinelli and had the manufacturing of the Columbus tubed models moved to Italy. KHS had some of the John Howard series in the mid-1980s built with Columbus tubing but I'm not sure of the country of origin. Panansonic also had some of their Team series of the mid-1980s built with Columbus tubing. There may be one or two more, but this is what immediately comes to mind.

artclone

Great info @T-Mar, thanks.

artclone

Got it together. Bike was sold with Superbe Pro, but I figured an early 90s bike calling itself a Futura deserved brifters. Not sure about the all white tape, etc, but it will do for now. I recovered the saddle myself!










Bought a 600 seatpost for myself for xmas, so that will complete it.

Feels great so far. I'll update when I dial in the fit and shifting.

Edit: Oops, forgot big chainrings for pics. Next time . . .