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Installing 6400 crank in a Gitane from 1975

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Installing 6400 crank in a Gitane from 1975

Old 08-25-16, 03:13 AM
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jellyfishhh
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Installing 6400 crank in a Gitane from 1975

Hi,
I hate old simplex deraileurs but the reynolds 531 rides very nicely. I have a 6400 8 speed shimano 600 with good wheels. I really want to try fitting that crank in that french frame. Is the frame french threated? IF yes (almost sure), what is the easiest way to do it? which bottom bracket do I need?


...and last question Should I keep the mafac brakes? (I hope the answer is yes)


what do you think guys.
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Old 08-25-16, 05:40 AM
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i had a 1972 gitane interclub...oved the mafacs, loved the simplex.....simplex won the tour de france....so they should be good enough for us, don't you think?
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Old 08-25-16, 05:54 AM
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How could you not like Mafac brakes? (of course it's a rhetorical question)
Should be no problem with the BB spindle taper - JIS copied French.
There is possibly a problem with spindle width if the crank chainlines are significantly different.
In 90s components, especially is where you notice this change. When I built my Moser, I first tried using a Mighty Comp crank (ISO Campy Strada clone) I've had since '78, and had recently removed it from my Raleigh. Q was too low on this crank and couldn't clear the chainstays with the Mirage BB that came on the frame. I got a great ebay deal on NOS Centaur crank, which had the chainline I needed. (Rode out the Mirage BB and replaced it with SKF)

If your French frame has ISO threads, you might be able to swap the BB with the crank.
If it's French thread and you plan to ride a lot, might take the question to Jan Heine and put in a new SKF bb.

Last edited by bulldog1935; 08-25-16 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 08-25-16, 06:03 AM
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You might get lucky and be able to use the original BB if it's in good shape. The spindle taper should be close since JIS copied French (at least according to this website, https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...s-demystified/

In reality, it is not always that straightforward mixing BBs and cranks but maybe you'll get lucky. Plus the spindle length could easily be wrong even if the taper is not.

Or you could get a new BB.

The problem is that the frame could be french or swiss threaded. The fixed cup is reverse threaded if it's swiss; right thread if its French. Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Bicycle Bottom Bracket Crib Sheet

I don't know offhand any way to determine what it is very easily. If you post some pics of the bike, someone here can probably help you with the threading question. The frame is likely French threaded I believe since Swiss is less common.

If it's French, you can get a modern square taper BB from Velo Orange or IRD. If it's Swiss, that's tough. The only BB I know if is a Phil Wood and that's expensive.
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Old 08-25-16, 06:03 AM
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You could pick up a set of shimano french thread cups, then you are free to fit any std axle (vs the "thin wall" type, where axle selection is limited)

I believe loose screws and velo orange has french cups - fleabay as well
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Old 08-25-16, 06:14 AM
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IRD makes Swiss cups for their cartridge BB. Not as expensive as a Phil Wood.
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Old 08-25-16, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by clasher View Post
IRD makes Swiss cups for their cartridge BB. Not as expensive as a Phil Wood.
That's a good piece of info.
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Old 08-25-16, 06:52 AM
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This is the bike you posted about in the Gitane forum, right? The blue Champion du Monde with the Huret honeycomb dropouts?



If it were my bike and I felt the need to update it with 8-speed parts, I would look at -

1. - spreading the rear ends apart to accomodate 8-speed, which is what, 130 mm space vs. the stock 122 or 126 the Gitane came with. You can muscle it apart, though best practice is probably to have it reset to 130-ish.

2. - get all the pertinent information about the Shimano BB as far as length of spindle, etc., and then go shopping on the Velo-Orange site for the same length and taper in a cartridge unit. That will probably work better than anything else, and now that bottom brackets have become consumables, it's probably the easiest way to go.

3. - KEEP THE MAFACS! - they will work just fine with brifters or aero levers. Awesome brakes!

Now, an alternative option that I will throw out there just for fun - consider poking around and finding the right SunTour freewheel. If your Gitane is currently a 5-speed, you need an old Ultra 6, which fits the same size spacing. If your bike is currently a 6-speed, find a SunTour 7-speed freewheel. According to John Allen on Sheldon Brown's site SunTour Perfect, Pro Compe and New Winner Freewheels you can get them to index with Shimano 7 and 8-speed systems, which would allow you to continue using the stock wheels and crankset but would permit you to use the indexing controls and derailleurs.

Keep all the original parts safe! Your old Gitane is a lovely, lovely old bike!
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Old 08-25-16, 07:17 AM
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If the original BB cups are in decent condition, just keep them and get the proper Shimano spindle for your crank.

If you need/want to replace them, post some close-up pictures of the cups (both sides) and lockring and we may be able to determine the thread spec. Until about 1980, French manufacturers used arcane knurling and engraved rings to indicate thread spec rather than explicitly marking it on the cups.
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Old 08-25-16, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
If the original BB cups are in decent condition, just keep them and get the proper Shimano spindle for your crank.

If you need/want to replace them, post some close-up pictures of the cups (both sides) and lockring and we may be able to determine the thread spec. Until about 1980, French manufacturers used arcane knurling and engraved rings to indicate thread spec rather than explicitly marking it on the cups.
Can you just pop a shimano spindle onto a bike with older french cups? I'm thinking of doing something like this on an older French bike. I thought sometimes combos from different manufacturers didn't work and you had to do some trial and error.
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Old 08-25-16, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Can you just pop a shimano spindle onto a bike with older french cups?
In general, yes. Cotterless spindles are pretty standard in diameter. Cottered cranks used a couple different diameters and some spindles won't fit through some cups. But if the OP's frame is Reynolds 531, that suggests a fairly high-end model that shouldn't present much of a problem.
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Old 08-25-16, 09:00 AM
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It sounds like a mid-1970s TdF. I always considered the Stronglight crankset to be the best component of the bicycle, so I find it strange that you want to swap it out. Regardless, if it has the original Stronglight, eight sided, fixed cup, you can easily determine the threading. A French cup (most likely) will have a single ring cut into the face. A Swiss cup (less likely) will have no ring. An English cup (even less likely) will have two rings. I'm assuming it wasn't stripped and tapped out to Italian (least likely).

Regarding the bottom bracket, I'd install both cranksets on the old bottom and measure the distance from the seat tube to the inner chainring. This will give you the difference in the profile of the cranksets. Now measure the old spindle protrusion from the face the bottom bracket shell on the drive side, as the old spindles were asymmetrical. Double the protrusion measurement and add it to the width of the bottom bracket shell (which should be 68mm) to determine the equivalent length a modern, symmetrical spindle. Finally, correct the length by adding or subtracting double the difference of the crankarm profiles measurement. This spindle length should duplicate the old chain line, provided the modern tapers are the same, as suggested by previous posts.

Personally, if I was converting the cranks to 6400, I'd convert the whole bicycle and not hesitate at including the brakes. While the MAFAC were good performers in their day, IMO, 600 Ultegra easily outperforms them. The main hurdle will be finding a set with mounting bolts for exposed nuts.

Last edited by T-Mar; 08-25-16 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 08-25-16, 10:25 AM
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+1 (x1000)

Stronglight rules. Why would you want to swap the cranks at all, especially for some ugly shimanos that won't match the look of the bike?? Stronglight cranks are light and stiff and will perform just as well as modern cranks. What do you expect to gain other than increased ugliness?

Re-tap the threads if you must, and use modern pedals, but otherwise keep it original.
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Old 08-25-16, 10:39 AM
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I don't think there is any reason to believe that a 1975 Gitane would have anything but French BB cups.
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Old 08-25-16, 12:51 PM
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Have you considered just swapping out the front and rear derailleurs, wheels and shifters? You'd get an 8spd setup with minimal hassle or change (you'd still have to either force the wheel into the rear dropouts or re-space the rear dropouts to 130mm).

No guarantees on old french parts but I would guess the original Stronglight crank would play nice with the new FD and 8spd chain if you used down-tube shifters instead of STI levers.
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Old 08-26-16, 05:03 AM
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It's the bike you saw at gitaneusa. Thank you very much for the good info. I didn't knot I had so many options.
I wonder if converting this old bike is the wright thing to do.
I can't ride it now because it needs new chainrings and chain but why not hust I hang it on the wall. I can convert another bike. I have 3 bikes in my sommer house and I always ride my merckx professional with super record. But I want a bike whith sti for training every day. Not really want to use the merckx every single day and i has 50-42 chainrings so I need something with 53. I have another option: I can use this contini frame (reynolds 531) and make things easier. I need a longer stem but that's it.
I thing the gitane champion du monde is a nice bike and I should keep it, but maibe not choose it for everyday rides when I have other options.
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Old 08-26-16, 05:49 AM
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1975
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
I don't think there is any reason to believe that a 1975 Gitane would have anything but French BB cups.
By 1975, Swiss threading was an anachronism, existing solely on old, odd frames, designed to annoy young bike mechanics.
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Old 08-26-16, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexCyclistRoch View Post
1975
By 1975, Swiss threading was an anachronism, existing solely on old, odd frames, designed to annoy young bike mechanics.


Not true.
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Old 08-27-16, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Can you just pop a shimano spindle onto a bike with older french cups? I'm thinking of doing something like this on an older French bike. I thought sometimes combos from different manufacturers didn't work and you had to do some trial and error.
If the french bottom bracket are "thin cups" a std shimano spindle probably won't fit.

see the photo, a stronglight spindle (bottom) has the bearing surfaces further outboard than a standard shimano spindle (hence the term thin cup - the walls of the cup are thinner on a older stronglight than a more modern shimano cup)

it is possible to fit the std axle, but there may be an issue in getting the lockring to lock
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Old 08-27-16, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jcb3 View Post
If the french bottom bracket are "thin cups" a std shimano spindle probably won't fit.

see the photo, a stronglight spindle (bottom) has the bearing surfaces further outboard than a standard shimano spindle (hence the term thin cup - the walls of the cup are thinner on a older stronglight than a more modern shimano cup)

it is possible to fit the std axle, but there may be an issue in getting the lockring to lock
Thank you, this is good info. I'm working on a Follis 172 and I'd like to install a longer spindle.
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Old 08-27-16, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Thank you, this is good info. I'm working on a Follis 172 and I'd like to install a longer spindle.
I picked up the bottom one from fleabay - some guy in france selling (no relationship with seller) for ~$25 (including shipping)

search stronglight axe

It is a 125mm - I can't testify about whether the tapers are ISO or JIS (although I'm leaning to JIS)
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Old 08-28-16, 04:44 AM
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1974 TdF wuth British Threads

Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
I don't think there is any reason to believe that a 1975 Gitane would have anything but French BB cups.
I got a 1974 Gitane Tour de France that came from Australia. It came with a Campy headset and BB. I was stunned to see that it had British threads! I thought maybe some one had jury rigged the frame but sure enough it was inch size not metric.

It wasn't until the early 80's that Gitane switched to British threads on their European market bikes.

First picture shows how it was found in OZ. Second picture how it looks now changed it back to all French (mostly).

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Old 08-29-16, 03:57 AM
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Swiss thread for my Peugeot PY10 1979.
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Old 08-29-16, 04:42 AM
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Swiss BBs

Originally Posted by Giuanin View Post
Swiss thread for my Peugeot PY10 1979.
Peugeot and Motobecane occasionally made bikes with Swiss bottom brackets. No rhyme or reason!

Swiss threaded BBs are 35mm x 1mm and have left hand fixed cup threads (drive side - like British/ISO threads).

Standard metric thread BBs (France, Spain and others) have right hand threads on both sides. Left hand fixed cups are less likely to loosen in use.


As far as I know, Gitane NEVER used Swiss BBs.

My 1974 TdF that came from Australia has a British threaded BB and headset. In the early 80's Gitane started using British threads on the BBs and headsets.

Around 1976 we started seeing Peugeots with some British threads - pedals and freewheels. A few had British thread BBs. to.

This stuff was never documented. We discovered these things at our shop by trial and error.

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Old 08-29-16, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jcb3 View Post
I picked up the bottom one from fleabay - some guy in france selling (no relationship with seller) for ~$25 (including shipping)

search stronglight axe

It is a 125mm - I can't testify about whether the tapers are ISO or JIS (although I'm leaning to JIS)
I put this Flicker album together a few years ago when I was putting together a SS bike. Explanations are under the pictures.

I did this in a hurry, attempting to debunk the fantasies about crank arm and spindle tapers.

The standard Stronglight BB spindles were for doubles were 118.5mm and 120.5mm long (also 123mm). 124mm and 125.5mm were usually used with triples.

Suggestion to check fit:

Put in the fixed cup. Use a caged 1/4" ball bearing. Slide the spindle into the BB with the ball bearings and then slide the crank arm over the spindle.

You can check to see how far the crank slides onto the spindle plus how much of a gap there is between the inner chainring and the chain stay. When you torqued down the crank arm to 30 foot pounds, it will seat about 1mm to 2mm further onto the spindle

Note, I always use loose 1/4" grade 25 alloy steel balls rather than retainers.

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Last edited by verktyg; 08-29-16 at 05:07 AM.
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