T-Mar

Yes, there will always be collectibles. As stated by VtgTENNspeeder, collectibility is often rooted in the sentimentality of the desired by unobtainable products of our youth. Having won 4 of the last 5 TdF, I'm quite confident that Pinarello Dogmas of current vintage will be popular with the 30-something crowd in twenty years, particularly in Great Britain.

bulldog1935

no question laying up pre-peg began as an art and evolved into a science.
Working in gas turbines and pumps, I've also seen instances where the welding skill of a union craftsman could make a product that stood the service where the CNC/robot replacement part repeatedly wasn't holding up.

T-Mar

Even more, the assembly line enforced the need for precision and accuracy. While handmade products were typically finished to very high standards, there could be dimensional variations that would require tailoring of mated parts. This was tolerable when making one product at a time, but was devastating to an assembly line. The assembly line drove dimensional improvements to ensure interchangeability, which was boon to the repair market and improved the performance and reliability of the product itself.

Dave Cutter

Oh yeah! But mechanized welding [assembly] lines... although the welding is performed by machine... are for the most part operated by trained welders. But among that group of welders there is always that one guy (or two) who can answer questions about welding projects taken on outside of the shop.

Some people live their craft, art, science... whatever.

I found... back in the day when I was still productive (I am retired). That with the transition to computerized mechanization there were often gaps between programing and the mechanical skill sets. So design efforts were sometimes made with inherent errors caused by programmers misunderstanding, assumptions, or inabilities to foresee material changes altering a process/design change.

bulldog1935

originally, this process was called duplication - making parts interchangeable.
The first machine screws were single-turned on a lathe, and never identical. On precision products of that era, the screw heads and slots were numbered to mate them for diassembly/reassenbly (began with clock makers). Talk about collectible...


1845 Meek reel, built by a watchmaker

brianinc-ville

You're familiar with this line of argument, right?

https://www.salon.com/2013/08/27/the_..._age_newscred/

bulldog1935

makes sense, but tough to do with a bike

VtgTENNspeeder

I believe we are living in a very interesting era. We are in the pivot point of a generation trying to get everything to do everything for them. And a generation(s) trying to hold onto the mechanical things that actually took talent and craftsmanship to build. Things that you have to understand and want to be able to fix/build with your hands. One generation wants the machine to, for lack of a better term, be their master. Telling them what to do and when. The other generations who love DIY and working with their hands and minds. People who love the "hunt" for these treasures almost as much as the items themselves while the other generation wants everything at their finger tips. The "I want it, I want it all and I want it NOW" crowd. Simplicity is definitely better. The next greatest thing in cycling to that generation is a bike that pedals, shifts, steers and can GPS the destination for the rider. Sound cool? Sounds horrible and frightening to me.
Our children aren't even being taught how to use writing instruments or to learn cursive to communicate any more?!!!
We love the mechanics of the old bikes because WE can work on them. We get the sense of accomplishment and a portion of pride from that. The other generation will never know or understand it, how sad.
I couldn't tell you the first thing about "Gaming" but I can't ensuing a bike or a 350 engine.
We are watching a huge way of life disappear right before our eyes. Much like the guys who used to love horses and cherished the "life" of the animal and the power if could deliver at their hands must have felt the same way when the automobile came along. The way cyclists felt when the motorcycle was invented, or the way cooking gave way to the TV dinner! LOL
Anyways the times they are a changing and more dinosaurs are becoming extinct in the wake of technology.
Collectibles only last as long and retain value as long as that generation is active in hunting them down. I remember when I was a kid and cars were the thing, the guys wanted the old model A's and T buckets to hotrod. Those guys are gone and the cars they loved are gone too. Nobody wants those cars any more because the guys who loved them are gone and they took that love for those cars with them. Think I'm kidding ask any teenager about "LP's" or a hi-fi, both of which I own and love. You understand very quickly what I mean. The love will die for them when we're gone my friends. So love the things you love and keep enjoying them as long as you can because when they're gone, baby, they're gone!

Aemmer

Just my opinion not facts.

I have a hard time thinking a bike will ever be truly collectible if I don't know who the person was who made it.

I would bet the vast majority of bikes posted on C/V were bought for less than they sold new. Invest in your 401K instead.

As the world continues toward a direction of total domination or anarchy, the bike with the most day to day utility will become the most desirable.

RiddleOfSteel

VtgTENNspeeder, you bring up some solid observations. I certainly see it, too, that 'do it for me' or 'I'll do it.' In one of my classes for Transportation Design (mostly exterior and interior car design), we'd call it 'knowledge in the world' and head knowledge. Keyboards with the letters on them is 'knowledge in the world.' Smart phones allow more of that, and often it seems, to the detriment of the intelligence of the user (if a higher level of intelligence was there to start with). Trying not to sound too "get off my lawn" (EXCELLENT movie, BTW), especially at 32 (Gen Y or whatever), but I'm seeing things change. It is inevitable, but can be nonetheless disconcerting or saddening.

The classic car market, especially the auctions, are huge eye-rollers for me. I couldn't care any less that a classic Ferrari 250 GTO sold for $40m or some utterly ridiculous number. The cars never get driven, it's just collecting and sitting. Sure, they can totally do that and not have to answer or justify to anyone why they did it. It just seems pointless. I think I have more of an issue with the same collectors who are now buying up some '80s and '90s Japanese cars, the ones that I grew up liking a lot, and driving prices up. Not cool. If every generation kind of 'gets their own cars', then it's encroachment I say! Whatever. Not buying those anyway. Still wondering who the keepers of the flame will be once the owners and care-takers of epic '20s and '30s Duesenburgs, Cords, Auburns, Cadillacs, Lincolns, Packards, and Bentleys have gone away. A second barn find?

As others have mentioned, the even more mass-produced nature of bikes today (so it seems) just don't light many/any of our fires. Even though 30 years ago, all bikes were lugged steel of similar geometries (roughly...), the "everything looks the same" argument applied. I will probably hunt after long forgotten stuff in 20 more years, if that stuff looks good. 64cm Trek Madones and Emondas do not look good, as does most any sloping-top-tube bike. Carbon bikes need to look better/cooler for me to really get into them.
9000-series DA will be cheaper and I'll look for a mechanical rim brake groupset. Forgotten or passed-on frame builders' bikes in 20-30 years will be remembered by some of us and we'll snap them up and enjoy them.

Whatever happens, I'll be riding my steel steeds. They're mine, I selcted all the pieces and built them all up. No need to collect more at the moment (won't stop though!).

Stadjer

I agree with the general idea, but not entirely. These rich people who buy old racing cars like the 250 GTO tend to race them. They're quite practical about it, they have the chassis number together with the engine number and that's what counts for the originality of the racing car. So if they wreck them, the damage is not 40 million but the cost of a few expensive specialists in working metal and mechanics, that's hardly ever more than half a million. The price of the car just means that a 'total loss' in the sense of repair beeing more costly than the value of the car doesn't exist.

Of course a lot of collectors are chasing their childhood dream cars, but I'm not worried about the collectibility of 30's cars at all. Not just because children can dream about cars from other decades, but because they age very well. Leather, wood, steel, bakelite, it changes over the years but in a beautiful way, 80's Japanese plastics and fabrics don't. They also have very 'strong' shapes that don't need to be dentfree and a perfect paintjob to make an impact. And they were build to last, because they did not know back then how to make a car reliable for a limited life span. After 80 years in a barn, those are still a find, I don't think there's much left to find if an 80's Japanese car. In 80 years the Toyota Starlets are probably still driving around somewhere on earth without ever have been in a barn, but for the others it's probably better that they are restored and collected now so some will still be around in eighty years.

Normware

I have a 37 year old Marinoni. Bought it new in 79 (yup me old). I did not realize it was "vinrtage" until I brought it in to the LBS for some work. I also have a new Giant Defi.

Both ride great. I looked at a new Steel Ritchey. Did not like it at all. Did not ride as well as my Marinonin and was not even close to the Giant.

The Giant has more gears and allows me to shift gears so I can ride at the same cadence.

That being said I am looking for more steel frames/bikes, because I like them.

As for using old sporting equipment:

I have a pair of 1972 Team Dynastar skiis (used by the French ski team) would I use them today? NO they were very difficult to turn (even when new) and would probably fall apart. Did I use them? Yes I know how to turn a ski. But today they are wall hangers. Are they collectible. Yes if you are into old skiis, but I have no reason to sell them.

Old golf clubs: would I collect them? NO and if I did would I use them? NO too difficult to play. The new equipment are much easier to play and make golf much more enjoyable. That being said I stopped playing years ago as it tok too much time away from fishing and biking.

Old fishing gear:
Rods, very collectible, but I again would not use old rods as they become fragile with age, and again the new stuff is awesome for feeling a bite and fighting a fish.
Reels: although they are like bikes in the sense that they can keep going, using old baitcasters compared to the new ones. There is no comparisons. The new stuff is so much better that using vintage reels makes you a luddite.
Lures: very collectible and after spending so much on them (they can be expensive) would you risk using them and losing them?

All this being said Collectible is what turns you on, regardless if there is any "dollar value" in it to some one else.

So 30 years from now (If I am still alive) will my Giant be worth anything to some one? Who knows - maybe yes maybe no.

And as a final thought my Marinoni cost me in 1979 about 1000$. Whats it worth today? Don't know and don't care cause I am not selling it.....yet

bulldog1935

I don't know, ******ch-made reel from 1940, and Fred Thomas hand-built this rod in 1932

could use a bigger net

Bikerider007

JThis is such a complicated subject as there are so many factors and so many types of collectibles. Some will stand, some will fall into obscurity.

As for the article regarding music being digital, LPs may be gone but I have seen NOS 1st Gen IPods listed at 1k. Even when virtual reality is as good in regards to feel and smell to reality, things will be collectible as reality will be valued, and only virtual reality addicts will not value things. (think crack addict, lol). On a side note, even Atari 2600s are collectible, and I think they exceed origanal PP already. Not sure with inflation though.

Fortunately bicycles are something that is going no where until we fly, but should have purpose for the foreseeable long term.. The problem is we can get emotionally attached to something that has no value or real collectibility. There were and are millions made so only certain ones will rise to the top. On the other hand because they are so functional for many reasons, they don't need to be ultra rare to collect and enjoy. The tough part is sorting out what really will be the cream in the future.

And the most popular, cutting edge, high end, and products tied to a successful person or event will always be collectible. Of any type.

I still believe the era of the 60, 70s and 80s is special for many reasons in regards to cycling. Fierce competition created quality and unique products, technology (bmx and mtb were also created during this coming of age) with 10-12 speeds being more than good enough for average and casual riders to climb hills etc, quality control was coming in place-the use of Waterford, TSD etc set standards, most things were not shipped to China or Taiwan for cheap labor and mass production (ok Schwinn tried, Huffy and Murray) and many craftsmen made a name for themselves so there is provenance. Last, it was pre internet but recent enough that much was documented by people like those on this site, hard copy stuff, not digital intangible. Just my .02 and no bikes are not my retirement, they are my passion.

And I still cannot believe there is not a TV show for restos, flip a vintage bike, or a shop series on cable. Anyone want to get together and take a run at it :-)

RiddleOfSteel

I like the guys who buy and race their old Ferraris or old any performance car. Events like Goodwood and Monterey Historics and the like are fantastic for so many reasons. The textured exhaust note of cars of that era are simply wonderful. Guys who own and drive the original/early W.O. Bentleys also receive my admiration as their point is to truly drive those cars, and fairly consistently. I agree that those old shapes are still impressive in their scale, proportion, and detail, barn find or fully restored. And that they won't ever be without a home.

For the 1980s, most of the desireables were available across the pond. The Toyota 2000 GT made earlier is already a classic and collectible, and a gorgeous one at that. Around 1990 was when performance really made a comeback all around, so the NSXs (which people still drive, with higher miles because they are well-built), Skylines, Supras, 300ZXs, RX7s etc are rising in value. The NSX has long been a favorite of mine and I've had chances to drive some at in-town speeds, but even then it was special. So that's on the fantasy list.

Stadjer

They certainly were well build, but building well in the 80's was very different from building well in the 30's. Recently I watched this classis car guy, Wayne Carini or something on NGC, and he found a Stutz Bearcat in a barn, untouched for decades. He just cleaned the tank and the carburator, a bit of oil and he took it to a concours with all it's patina. It's an impressive machine and almost a living thing like old steam engines are impressive and it's showing and letting feel, hear and smell it's engineering.

I'm not a fan of Japanese aesthetics, they really think different about lines. Sometimes it works great, like in the 2000 GT, but in general I respect the engineering and like the rotary of the RX-7 and don't love the looks. I'm more a fan of 60's and 70's European design, and the more free spirited American designs from the 20's to the 60's like Cord, Auburn, Studebaker and the mad European coach builders like Figoni et Falaschi and Saoutchik.

RiddleOfSteel

Big fan of Stutz's, too. I really wish there would be/be more coachbuilding like there was before. I agree building well then vs. 50 years later is very different. I appreciate the modern stuff for all its virtues, but really like looking at how things were done in the '20s and '30s, especially under the hood (well, the side-lifting units they made)...and how there really is nothing new. The machine being 'alive' is also really fun. Steam engines (if you mean locomotives--just asking to clarify) are indeed alive and I've witnessed them up close. That hot oil smell is great.

We have the LeMay Museum up here and I've been to the Peterson and Nethercutt museums in LA back when I went to school there. The Nethercutt was by far the most impressive to me, with dozens of period V12 and V16 cars from America. We really did it properly then.

I understand aesthetic preference. My age and growing up context lend me initial sympathy or fondness to the '80s stuff. The 3rd generation RX7 from 1993+ are utterly timeless in their organic, well-proportioned curves. The turbo rotary proved very unreliable, so a simple Corvette LS1 swap makes these the best of both worlds, to say nothing of the C5 'Vette generation. I drive a properly vocal '97 Camaro Z28 (black/black) with a 6-speed manual. I dig the unashamed '90s GM design language, and the price I got it at. Anyway, I'll conclude so we don't get too off topic, but it's fun to talk cars (and bikes) with another enthusiast.

Stadjer

Locomotives are more spectacular, but what I like about this old overengineered technology is that it reveals so much about how it works and not just by the eye and intellectual understanding but also through the other senses and almost in an emotional way. They can be percieved as moody, or stubborn, enthousiastic, happy, they invite you to project human characteristics on them.

It's a bold design, to be honest it wouldn't be my choice, but it certainly doesn't look like it's designed by a committee on behalf of a marketing panel. American car design lost me in the 80's, which happened to be the decade I got interested in car design, but I was very happy with the Cadillac 16 more than 10 years ago, it showed they recognized what they had lost. I'm afraid the fact that it didn't make it to production shows that it takes more than just recognition to manufacture something like that. I shouldn't go into my ideas why here, that's more suited to P&R.

Off topic? Well, it's got a lot do with materials. Leather ages well and beautifully, that's the same for saddles and touring gear. Steel hardly ages, stainless steel can rust in a way that can look quite nice in a way. Also bikes have the charm of showing how they work, the design can highlight that or not. But these old things that age well were build the best they could, that's part of charm. If you would build a bike these days and skip materials that you know are better for reasons of charm, it would never be the same as using those materials because they were the best available. Maybe we should just accept that technology avances and sometimes and some decades in a way that is charming and lasting and sometimes and some decades not.