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Originality vs Accuracy

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Originality vs Accuracy

Old 11-03-16, 11:13 AM
  #26  
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Well, I spent 15 mins. reading this thread. To summarize:

Leave the decal.
Post a picture.
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Old 11-03-16, 11:48 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by cloozoe View Post
Well, I did say "hypothetically", which could mean that it's indisputable because God told me so, or I invented a time machine and watched it being built.
Well, that's not going to work. If the guy building the bike sees you watching him, he'll do it differently.
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Old 11-03-16, 12:25 PM
  #28  
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oddjob said; And you know this for certain because........?


The OP responded: Doesn't matter, but if I bothered to outline the specifics you'd agree it was indisputable. Or even if you didn't, indisputable to my satisfaction. In the words of a great contemporary American statesman, "Believe me"
I am with oddjob on this. The OP has presented his opinion and backed it up with his opinion. Not the way things work in my world. That said...

Why is the decal incorrect? That is a simple question and one that should be answered. Unless the OP's opinion is to be absolutely indisputably accepted. And, at this point, I do not accept his or her opinion.

This is not intended to be disrespectful but a picture and an explanation would certainly be nice.
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Old 11-03-16, 12:28 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by gearbasher View Post
Well, I spent 15 mins. reading this thread. To summarize:

Leave the decal.
Post a picture.


This weeks internet winner!
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Old 11-03-16, 12:45 PM
  #30  
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Hard to believe you as long as you refuse to release your taxes, errr...I mean photos/details.
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Old 11-03-16, 12:54 PM
  #31  
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OK, I give.

Here's the frame - 81 or 82 Lotus Legend



Here's the sticker:

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Old 11-03-16, 12:54 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
Well, that's not going to work. If the guy building the bike sees you watching him, he'll do it differently.
Yes!
He will probably do it differently even if he doesn't see you watching. I had a teacher who referred to this as "the inherent *****iness of nature."

Me? In the case of the hypothetical/real bike in question I think the cat is both dead and not dead...
And maybe I would add a completely contrary sticker to the frame just to give history a little goose.
Brent

Hmm. The profanity filter didn't like that. Let's call it the "inherent female dogness of nature."

Last edited by obrentharris; 11-03-16 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:04 PM
  #33  
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Much ado about bupkis.

From the vintagelotusbicycles.com website:
"Of note on the early (1980) models are the lack of brazed-on bottle bosses and quite often, missing seat tube decals. The water-slide decals were prone to failure on the 1980 model bicycles and are frequently missing or damaged. We know from personal experience that when we purchased our new Lotus Legend in 1980 the bike arrived with the seat tube decals already peeling off. The dealer ordered us a new set and they all came on one water-slide decal sheet. It is also possible that some early bikes were shipped without seat tube decals, or when they arrived damaged the bike shops just removed them and sold the bike without."

Given your decal indicates a lower grade tubeset, I would remove it.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:11 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by cloozoe View Post
OK, I give.
Aww, anticlimax!
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Old 11-03-16, 01:11 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by oddjob2 View Post
Much ado about bupkis.

From the vintagelotusbicycles.com website:
"Of note on the early (1980) models are the lack of brazed-on bottle bosses and quite often, missing seat tube decals. The water-slide decals were prone to failure on the 1980 model bicycles and are frequently missing or damaged. We know from personal experience that when we purchased our new Lotus Legend in 1980 the bike arrived with the seat tube decals already peeling off. The dealer ordered us a new set and they all came on one water-slide decal sheet. It is also possible that some early bikes were shipped without seat tube decals, or when they arrived damaged the bike shops just removed them and sold the bike without."

Given your decal indicates a lower grade tubeset, I would remove it.

Wait, maybe I'm not getting this, but how do we know the frame isn't Champion #5, as specified on the sticker? Can we deduce anything from the seatpost diameter? And what is the diameter of the seatpost?
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Old 11-03-16, 01:13 PM
  #36  
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They fixed the water slide decal issues with the model 1981 framesets. This is an 81 or 82 given the presence of bottle bosses and non-water slide decals. Not an 83 or later as it has non-aero brake levers.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:15 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by cloozoe View Post
Picked up a bike of very modest monetary value, but which was like a window onto 1981. It was in flawless condition, having been sitting in a heated basement for 20 years after being ridden very minimally prior to that. Everything, and I mean everything stock/original/complete. Guy even still had the owners manual. The bloody tires were original, albeit decomposing.

The tubing decal, however, is in error; right manufacturer but wrong tube designation. There is absolutely no question that the frame is not made of the tubing designated on the sticker, nor were any of it's model-mates ever made of it; there is also no question that the bike came from the shop with that decal on it; either the factory did it, or the bike shop.

Preamble out of the way, here's the question: Would you keep the sticker on, as it is doubtless original but wrong, like an upside down Jenny stamp, or would you replace it with a reproduction, making it accurate but unoriginal.

I realize what a trivial issue this is, but thought it was an interesting philosophical question. Of course, I'm easily amused.

If you look long enough there are still Mondale and Dukakis stickers on car bumpers, and one guy I know who finds vintage Nixon stickers for his. It's not like a double-struck war penny, I think the most important thing is that it works.


It would be like your spouse has freckles. You won't toss them back in the lake or whatever.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:20 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
Wait, maybe I'm not getting this, but how do we know the frame isn't Champion #5, as specified on the sticker? Can we deduce anything from the seatpost diameter? And what is the diameter of the seatpost?

Can find nothing that indicates 81-82 Legends were ever made with anything other than Champion 1 (up to 23") or Champion 2 (larger than 23").

Weight of the frame/fork is right for Champion 1; significantly too light for Champion 5.

Champion 5 is not a "lower grade" tube set, per se, merely a heavier/more robust one, suitable for fully loaded touring frames. Or very, very fat guys. Aside from the foregoing, it would make no sense to build their top of the line clincher wheeled bike - a sportive/quasi racing frame - from Champion 5, nor do I believe a relatively mass-market bike like this would have been available with 5 as a one-off/custom piece. Hugely more likely that someone just slapped the wrong sticker on it.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:21 PM
  #39  
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On the other side of things, I have no desire to browbeat cloozoe for his choice of wording and lack of specifics because those things have nothing to do with his question and both his opinions and his method of drawing conclusions are none of my business. The question he asked, however, is quite interesting and one I struggle with on a daily basis. At the restoration shop we try fairly hard to get important factory "flaws" to appear as they did when new, but if we can't tell how something was originally done or if the flaw is unimportant to the "correctness" of the finished product our policy is to do it as the factory should have done it. More or less, we try to figure out what the factory intended and work toward that goal. As a basic and obvious example of that, we take out the stamping ripples in exterior sheet metal, but leave the spot-weld marks in the jambs - the factory didn't intend that quarter panels would be rippled but they did intend that the spot welds would be visible.

When I do wristwatches or bikes at home it's a bit different because sometimes the incorrect or non-factory aspects are part of the story. I have a few bikes that I'm fairly sure were originally used in competition and I wouldn't think of even touching up the paint, let alone refinish them, because those flaws were an earned part of their story. Same with an Army issue WWII Waltham I have - in perfect condition it'd just be another watch, but as it sits it has a story to tell. As to your incorrect decal, I'm on the fence. On one hand there is a story, but on the other hand it probably isn't a very interesting story. Most likely they ran out of the correct decals and just grabbed whatever was laying around to complete the look. If there's some historical significance to the inaccuracy - if for some reason someone out there is going to prefer that it stay wrong - I'd leave it, but if not I'd think seriously about replacing them. It get's old having to constantly explain "this is actually wrong, but that's the way it was when it was new" when nobody cares.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:24 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by thumpism View Post
Factories mess things up all the time. My dad had a car he bought new with deluxe trim on one side and standard on the other and he did not notice until someone pointed it out to him.
As the factories got more automated, the mistakes got more impressive. The Impala factory in Arlington put one together as a coupe on one side(one door) and a sedan on the other(two doors). It may have happened more than once.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:39 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by cinco View Post
On the other side of things, I have no desire to browbeat cloozoe for his choice of wording and lack of specifics because those things have nothing to do with his question and both his opinions and his method of drawing conclusions are none of my business. The question he asked, however, is quite interesting and one I struggle with on a daily basis. At the restoration shop we try fairly hard to get important factory "flaws" to appear as they did when new, but if we can't tell how something was originally done or if the flaw is unimportant to the "correctness" of the finished product our policy is to do it as the factory should have done it. More or less, we try to figure out what the factory intended and work toward that goal. As a basic and obvious example of that, we take out the stamping ripples in exterior sheet metal, but leave the spot-weld marks in the jambs - the factory didn't intend that quarter panels would be rippled but they did intend that the spot welds would be visible.

When I do wristwatches or bikes at home it's a bit different because sometimes the incorrect or non-factory aspects are part of the story. I have a few bikes that I'm fairly sure were originally used in competition and I wouldn't think of even touching up the paint, let alone refinish them, because those flaws were an earned part of their story. Same with an Army issue WWII Waltham I have - in perfect condition it'd just be another watch, but as it sits it has a story to tell. As to your incorrect decal, I'm on the fence. On one hand there is a story, but on the other hand it probably isn't a very interesting story. Most likely they ran out of the correct decals and just grabbed whatever was laying around to complete the look. If there's some historical significance to the inaccuracy - if for some reason someone out there is going to prefer that it stay wrong - I'd leave it, but if not I'd think seriously about replacing them. It get's old having to constantly explain "this is actually wrong, but that's the way it was when it was new" when nobody cares.
Thanks very much for the interesting, on-point response. Appreciate it.
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Old 11-03-16, 01:44 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
Yes!
He will probably do it differently even if he doesn't see you watching. I had a teacher who referred to this as "the inherent *****iness of nature."

Hmm. The profanity filter didn't like that. Let's call it the "inherent female dogness of nature."
I've discovered that modifying the spelling lets words like b*i*t*c*h*i*n*e*s*s go through. Displays as spelled.
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Old 11-03-16, 02:04 PM
  #43  
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When my kids were little they played with Lego Duplo bricks etc, including a Duplo farm animal set. Somehow the pig had gotten its eyes silkscreened on at the wrong end, on either side of the tail. Most people didn't notice, but it was pretty funny.
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Old 11-03-16, 06:09 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 700 View Post
As the factories got more automated, the mistakes got more impressive. The Impala factory in Arlington put one together as a coupe on one side(one door) and a sedan on the other(two doors). It may have happened more than once.
Now that is interesting... I'm stuggling to think of a model year in which Impalas were available both in 2-door and 4-door models, and had a common roof. In fact, I can't think of one . I don't know, but maybe there was an Impala 2-door post in MY 1961, which then would have had a common roof with an Impala 4-door post. Even so, it would have taken a prodigious effort on the part of the assemblers to ignore the obvious as such a monster was being built.
Can you elaborate, in which model year this happened?... Is there a link you can share?

OTOH, the 1967-1972 Chevrolet/GMC Suburbans deliberately had one door on the driver's side and two on the passenger side.

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Old 11-03-16, 08:56 PM
  #45  
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Man I wish this thread had started out with something like "My Lotus Legend somehow received a Champion 5 tubing decal. Seems original, but definitely incorrect. Would you keep or remove?"

But if wishes were fishes, we'd all have a live/dead cat in a box marked Champion 1.
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Old 11-03-16, 10:48 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by oddjob2 View Post
Much ado about bupkis.

From the vintagelotusbicycles.com website:
"Of note on the early (1980) models are the lack of brazed-on bottle bosses and quite often, missing seat tube decals. The water-slide decals were prone to failure on the 1980 model bicycles and are frequently missing or damaged. We know from personal experience that when we purchased our new Lotus Legend in 1980 the bike arrived with the seat tube decals already peeling off. The dealer ordered us a new set and they all came on one water-slide decal sheet. It is also possible that some early bikes were shipped without seat tube decals, or when they arrived damaged the bike shops just removed them and sold the bike without."

Given your decal indicates a lower grade tubeset, I would remove it.
See now I feel like this is an entirely relevant outcome from the OP sharing the particulars. To me, seeing that the incorrect decal was likely put on after it left the factory makes the case for replacing it with the correct decal slightly stronger, but the fact that this was a common problem for this particular bike makes the case for leaving the incorrect decal intact slightly stronger. On balance, if it were me I'd leave it if I weren't doing anything else to the bike, but if I had other restoration type things to do I'd get the correct decal.

Seeing the direction of the error was also clarifying.

FWIW, I agree with gugie's comments about the appeal of tubing stickers. I recently ordered a reproduction of the original French "3 Tubes" version of the Reynolds 531 decal for my '72 Motobecane Grand Record even though I'm modifying and modernizing many other aspects of the bike. Having the "correct" tubing sticker was kind of important to me.

On the other hand, I haven't even considered replacing the fragmented and scrambled Reynolds 531 decal on my A-D because, tattered as it is, it's still the original decal.
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Old 11-03-16, 11:03 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
Now that is interesting... I'm stuggling to think of a model year in which Impalas were available both in 2-door and 4-door models, and had a common roof. In fact, I can't think of one . I don't know, but maybe there was an Impala 2-door post in MY 1961, which then would have had a common roof with an Impala 4-door post. Even so, it would have taken a prodigious effort on the part of the assemblers to ignore the obvious as such a monster was being built.
WHOA, if true! But yeah, it sounds like BS to me, too. That Suburban is pretty cool though. And there's certainly no reason an aftermarket shop couldn't fabricate a custom job of whatever door combo you'd want.
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Old 11-04-16, 03:52 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
See now I feel like this is an entirely relevant outcome from the OP sharing the particulars. To me, seeing that the incorrect decal was likely put on after it left the factory makes the case for replacing it with the correct decal slightly stronger, but the fact that this was a common problem for this particular bike makes the case for leaving the incorrect decal intact slightly stronger. On balance, if it were me I'd leave it if I weren't doing anything else to the bike, but if I had other restoration type things to do I'd get the correct decal.

Seeing the direction of the error was also clarifying.

FWIW, I agree with gugie's comments about the appeal of tubing stickers. I recently ordered a reproduction of the original French "3 Tubes" version of the Reynolds 531 decal for my '72 Motobecane Grand Record even though I'm modifying and modernizing many other aspects of the bike. Having the "correct" tubing sticker was kind of important to me.

On the other hand, I haven't even considered replacing the fragmented and scrambled Reynolds 531 decal on my A-D because, tattered as it is, it's still the original decal.
See, but the thing about it's "being a common problem for this particular bike" is not true. It was a common problem for the 1980 version of this bike and only the 1980 version.

But in hindsight I would have taken J Oxley's advice and just said "Got the wrong sticker tube on my 81 Lotus Legend - Leave or Replace". Then we could have had two pages of discussion about whether I know what I'm talking about vis a vis the sticker being wrong, but without the vitriol. We still wouldn't have discussed what I was interested in discussing --with the notable and eloquent exception of cinco-- but I can't control what people find interesting or banish non sequiturs from public fora.
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Old 11-04-16, 05:37 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by cloozoe View Post
Well, I did say "hypothetically", which could mean that it's indisputable because God told me so, or I invented a time machine and watched it being built.
If it was indisputable, then it couldn't be "hypothetically" anything.

I think you just made the whole thing up since you're unwilling to prove your theorem by posting pics of the actual bike. Your theorem is that your bike has wrong decals for it's frame material, yet you can't know that unless you've tested the metal itself. It's actually possible that your bike has an incorrect frame material, but has correct decals.
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Old 11-04-16, 05:54 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
Respect goes a long way on this forum. Someone with nearly 16K posts wouldn't still be around if they didn't add value in some major ways. Mostly because offensive individuals typically get ignored to oblivion.
I can think of a few people with many thousands of posts that thrive on being ignored.
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!

"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
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