Nope: I am right. Example: this happened on something I was bidding on - yesterday.

I bid on a set of bike shifters - my single bid was $70.99. Someone else made a final winning bid of $71.00 - this was the final sale price.

If the winning bidder had placed a bid of $75, then the final sale price would have been $71.99.

So it is possible for someone to reveal a previous proxy bid by nibbling away at $1 increments. That is, if the initial bidder is foolish enough to bid in even $1 increments.

I don't use anything to bid for me...I didn't know there were such things lol.
I don't place a bid until the last few seconds, usually. I open the auction on my phone, desktop, and tablet. I do this in case one freezes & so I can bid faster/back-to-back if needed.

while driving

Have you been to a live auction? Have you been on any auction sites that extend the deadline by a fixed amount if there is a bid within the last 15 minutes? Those auctions do a much better job determining fair market value for an item.

If you have a price set and a shill outbids you, he will be paying fees to eBay. And then he will have to repost if he wants to sell the item. If he stops the sale and relists, it will be obvious he is using a shill.

If someone wants to set up a shill system, it by nature must be complex to avoid detection. One can set up a shill in either form of auction. eBay is designed to be a sniping system, I don't consider it to be an auction site. I specifically search for BIN or Make an Offer items.

I get the feeling that many people want to find something very expensive for next to nothing. If you want to "get a steal of a deal," you are going to spend a great amount of time searching. Time is money.

Good points Dave. Ebay seems to have become mostly a marketplace for fixed price sales.
Auctions are still there, of course. But fewer and fewer, it seems.

Personally, I do manual last second sniping when I want something. But I don't buy much on ebay anymore.

I agree about the frustration of sniping when you lose a bid, and especially as a seller when you know money was left out there. However, the idea that when you lose you were outbid by $0.50 or $1 isn't quite the case. It only seems that way, since eBay only uses enough of someone's max bid to go above the highest existing bid.

Example: You put in a max bid of $50. With a minute to go, someone bids $60.77. What you see is that you've been outbid, and the current high bid is $50.50. You aren't going to lose for 50 cents, so you bid again, this time $55. You are immediately outbid, and now the top bid is $55.50. So with 1 second to go, you jam in a bid of $60, and you still lose to a winning bid of $60.50.

In that example, you can change the other person's max bid to $75, or $275. It will play out exactly the same way, with a winning bid of $60.50, just a paltry four bits above your max effort.

More than a few times I've been bidding in the final minutes, and after being the top bidder, I'm consistently outbid by tiny increments. At this moment I've had the sense that if I just go a bit higher I'd win. And then as the auction closes, the bidding goes super high, way above where it was. What happened?

A new bidder, using a bid-sniping service, revealed themselves. I.e., I was in a 3-way battle, with a known self bidder doing his or her own sniping against me, and a programmed sniper. The result is that the auction closes much higher than I expected. In this case, the sniper has forced the hand of the other bidder's max bid, or vice versa. We still don't know what the winner's absolute max bid was, but we do know what the second overbidder's max was.

In other words, when you're the second highest bidder, it will always seem like they barely beat you, even if their max was 50 or 100% higher than your max.

I've run a real auction, and participated in a few. What you sometimes get at a live auction is emotional bidding, which people have mentioned here. People go above their cool-headed max bid in the heat of the battle. You love it as a seller, but it frankly doesn't happen all that often in live auctions in my experience.

If everyone uses a sniping service , and there are multiple bidders), you get closer to FMV on eBay. The problem with eBay as a seller is that you know some number of potential buyers never notice your auction, or they aren't savvy enough to use a sniping service, and so get outbid when they would have gone higher. Ebay works well for items that are commonly sold, and that buyers are searching for. It's the really unusual stuff that might attract only a single knowledgeable bidder, and that bidder will get a silly bargain. Or the seller is unlucky, which happens at live auctions too, and no one checks your auction. That's why you set your reserve, though that can kill off the bidding before it gets going (both live and on eBay).

Not always correct. Back when I was doing auctions (not buy it now, immediate payment required), I got 10% or more NO PAYS. There is very little penalty for bidders to get buyers remorse and just not pay. In those instances, I have given #2 a second chance offer.

I got tired of the deadbeat buyers so I exclusively go with buy it now, immediate payment required.

I don't understand the fixation with "shill" bidders. When I get a second chance offer, at a price I was willing to pay, why wouldn't I take the deal? Personally, I don't care how the price got over my bid. I refuse to bid more than an item is worth to me (good deal). So if I get a second chance offer to obtain the item at my "good deal" price, I'm taking it. No shill bidder is going to get me to go over my "good deal" price. So the fact that some shill bidder temporarily "beat" my bid, so what.....


Although I will occasionally snipe bid, most of the time, as a buyer, I am just going buy it now instead. I either like the price or not. If I like the price, why not BIN?

I would. A few years back, there was a GT Karakoram in my size. These aren't all too common, and I think it was full Deore XT. I sniped, came in second by a few dollars, but first place was a deadbeat. I emailed the seller about 2nd chance. He didn't offer and relisted. I don't remember what he got, but it was about the same. I didn't bid. My good will gets used rapidly. Seller could have cut to the chase and been done. Sometimes, selling is about getting a sale rather than getting the perfect amount.

Last week, a seller contacted me about a second chance offer on an unusual bike. He said he was hoping for more, but would take my bid. Fantastic. Seller is a great guy, too.

About 75% of the time, if I have a BIN on an item, and someone bids to erase the BIN, the sale will go above the BIN. Kinda dumb, but people are hoping that someone else doesn't want it.

Second chance offers in Ebay: I was bidding on something last week; the reserve price was $10 and I put in a proxy bid of $12. A few hours before the auction close, two low-feedback bidders came in within seconds of each other, and bid the final price up to $12.50.

Sure enough, a few hours after the auction close, I got a Second Chance offer with the usual BS stated that the high bidder(s) could not complete the transaction, and would I be willing to buy at my reserve price of $12.

So without the obvious shill bots, I would have won at $10, instead of having to accept some bogus second offer of $12. I know this is a small dollar difference, but suppose it was a bike auction of $1000 or more... The shill motivations would be far higher.

This is why I never accept (or decline) second chance offers.

And, BTW: I never do BIN purchases on Ebay. Ebay is an auction site.

I don't think you understood my previous post. The bottom line is that:

• it is possible for a shill bidder to reveal a legit proxy bid without actually winning an auction. So you can run up the auction to the limit of what another bidder is willing to pay.
• If the shill wins, the seller won't have to eat auction fees if the shill bidder backs out of the transaction.
• I have never been a seller, but I suspect that all that is required to set up a shill is a separate account on a separate IP address. How will Ebay know if your cousin Cletis is bidding on your stuff?

So again, I would never bid on an auction without a hard time cutoff. Bidding with 2 seconds left in the auction is the only protection against shill bidders. And again, never accept or decline second-chance offers.

I buy a lot of bike stuff on Ebay. Lots. Those are my conditions.

Sniping programs give you your time back. It is hysterical to me that people would try and compete in a competitive market place with antiquated methods.

another Bingo.

Most people would, if the BIN is a good price.

Some time ago I sold high volume low price on eBay, and I had a BIN on everything. About half would also be open for bidding. (The purpose of having both had to do with fee structures and search visibility. Of course they want to be know as "auctions" so I imagine that it's not as favorable now). I'd say 96%+ would just choose the BIN.

I never, ever bid on something on eBay, because if there weren't shill bids there were people playing the game to "win" the bids. Snipe at the end, or BIN.

That's exactly the way I do it. I figure exactly what the maximum is I want to pay for the parts, submit it within an 1/2 Hour of closing. If I win great if I loose off to the next Auction. But I usually win more than I loose. Got tired of feeling guilty over spending too much on parts that are usually overpriced.

I make a lot of offers on ebay and have done well on them.

Is it though?

This is their mission statement- Our mission is to be the world’s favorite destination for discovering great value and unique selection.

Nothing about being a great auction site or the largest auction site or anything concerning auctions. Ebay is simply a platform for buyers and sellers to exchange goods for payment in a variety of ways(ex- auction, BIN, offer).

As for you never doing BIN, why not?...well, why not besides the incorrect view that Ebay is an auction site?
I dont list much, but what I sold earlier this year was all set at BIN prices and everything sold in a few days. It was fantastic as a seller. I set pricing I thought was fair for the products and buyers bought the items. Pretty easy.
I do BIN as a buyer when the price looks good. Its odd that someone wouldnt. Want a Golden Arrow RD and there is a great one for $20 BIN?...buy it. Why pass it over for only an auction when the auction may have a Golden Arrow RD in worse condition?

The blatant shill bidders work like this - based on my actual experience:
Item has opening bid of $10. You put in your max bid of $70. You're the high bidder at $10.
Shill bidder wants your max price so guesses $100. He's the high bidder. He rescinds his bid. You're the high bidder at $10. Shill bidder tries again at $80. He's the high bidder. He rescinds his bid. He then tries $50. Now You're the high bidder at $51.
Then he bids $55, $60, $65 and $70 getting outbid until $75 - which he rescinds.
I reported it to ebay and while we were going back and forth on what to do about it I was outbid by a legit bidder - which was fine with me.

So from then on my "Max" bid on any auction was way less than what I would consider paying. If I won, great! If I was outbid, I would save my real Max bid for the end of the auction and try to win in the final few seconds. I have won some/ lost some. It's just stuff.

If you have your snipe set up honestly with yourself, you don't care about a shill bidder.
If the shill bidder quits, you got it for what you were willing to pay.
If the shill bidder bids over your honest max, you didn't want it.
If they come back and make you a 2nd chance offer, it will be at the value where the shill bidder began bidding.

I just bid the max I am willing to pay with 15 seconds remaining and confirm with 6 if I get it I get it if someone has a higher bid as their max or outbids with another method so be it.
I never try to jump in after being out bid because I have my max already in.
I will not bid my max early so it can be chipped away at.
If I win the auction great, if not there will be another POJ :roflmao2: to buy and put in a box along with the stuff I forgot I already have....for that future build that I will never get to.
JM2C's Ben

Edit: What Bulldog1935 said in post 96.

I assume by 'legit proxy bid' you mean your max bid. So how is this supposed to happen? I've never seen this in any auction I've won. If it worked this way, then every seller would do it. The only way a shill knows your max bid is when they've gone past it, in which case you either have to rebid, or the shill wins the auction.

Yes, it would be easy to set up a shill account. Not so easy to make it profitable over any period of time. Per eBay every time a bidder backs out of a sale, it's a 'black mark' on their record. Do this a few times, and do it with the same seller, and it will get noticed. A disgruntled buyer can easily check if a bidder they suspect of being a shill is only bidding on that seller's items, and also can check if that bidder is a new account. You can report suspicious activity. You might not get satisfaction 100% of the time, but eBay has an incentive to keep the game from being regularly rigged.

Basically, a seller and a shill can get away with this game a few times, but it's a lot of trouble, and they risk having their accounts closed. For a regular eBay seller, it's way too much trouble, and way too big a risk, unless they're doing it very selectively. And, per my question/comment above, the shill can only be successful if they don't exceed your max bid, which they can't know.

I've seen this conversation on other the other side of the coin (not eBay, bidding extended if a bid in the last 15 minutes). The conversation always ends the same as it does here: bid what you're willing to pay and accept the outcome. If you feel the need to use a sniping program, go for it. If you like to bid early and forget about it, great. If you like the excitement of watching and waiting for the last moment, good on ya. If you like the process of multiple bids, more power to you.

More often than not, I simply use eBay as a marketplace not unlike Amazon.

:deadhorse:

Here's another question for the experts. I see a stem I want to buy. I click "buy it now" and get a message "The seller can't accept payments right now". What the heck is that?

he is out of town and put his ebay account on hold