Commuting geometry thoughts
 

Hey guys,

I've been able to actually log real miles on some of my collection and I surprised myself by getting a feel for ride geometry! I've gotten into old steel more from the mechanic side of things and now that I've sold my car I'm always on the bikes by default.

I started commuting on a Cannondale St600 from the early 90s I picked up in Boston. I put hybrid wheels and monster 36mm (I think) tires with almost off road knobbies on them. What a beast! I think you could almost off-road downhill this bike. The 2" downtube and beefy aluminum are stiff as hell but the tires (and maybe the steel fork) smoothed out the road.

After I got more comfortable with city riding I pulled out the Miyata 710, an '85 with 3ple butted tubes and mangalite fork. It's still rocking the 23mm front and 25mm rear armadillos that I bought it with, maybe 15 years old but still holding air. This is a lively ride compared to the CDale. On the Dale you can look around and the bike will track straight, but the Miyata wants to follow every head turn. Different and very fun. It also spins up faster with the lighter tires.

Now with loaded panniers on the Cannondale it's a different kind of fast. Like a train, takes a while to spin up but once it's going it holds speed effortlessly and laughs at rough pavement.


Then I recently pulled out the '84 Miyata 310. 2ble butted tubes, and 1024 fork it's the humblest bike in the stable. It's my first C&V bike, given to me because I wanted to try bike riding again so I asked on Facebook if anyone had an old bike they were sick of storing. The "free" bike needed about 170.00 dollars in tape, tires, cables, etc. and I cleaned and tinkered it back to shape.

Well guys, it might be my favorite commuter. It splits the difference in ride quality, being stable but fun, and it's just really comfortable. I don't know if it's the fit or the geometry or materials but it's just a honey of bike. It seems to absorb road shock without being too insulating, its responsive but not at all squirrely, it's just about the perfect middle ground.

I still need to put time in on the other rides, the 610 needs assembly, the 912 needs toe clips, and some other projects are on the burner, but I'm just startled by how much I like the "bottom end" of Miyatas semi-pro line up.

I'd guess that much of the difference you are feeling is in the tires and specifically the tire sizes, rather than in the geometry. For example, if you put 32c tires on the 710, it would most likely start to feel more like the Cannondale. (assuming they fit... )

That makes a lot of sense, I'll have to try swapping some wheel sets around and see what happens. A lot seems to be made of bike geometry but tire width would surely affect handling.

He'll never get 32s on a 710. My commute bike is a 710 and I put the fattest tires I could on there, 25 front and 28 rear, with very little clearance.

I thought that might be the case. Oh, well, never mind then. It is a moot point since it isn't possible. 85 was around the time the thin tires thing was starting. Fatter tires should go on the 310 though.

My values for commuting bike geometry are very similar to those for proper touring bikes...

• somewhat slack angles
• decent chainstay length (for longitudinal stability, and more importantly, good weight distribution and avoidance of heelstrike with panniers)
• fork trail conducive to carrying reasonable cargo load on the front

Not geometry per se, but added to the above, a reasonably stiff and sturdy frame/fork to carry the load with stability and deal with road hazards over the long haul; and braze-ons for fenders and racks front & back, as well as cantis.

:thumb: Totally agree.

I prefer to commute on classic touring geometry or near to it, the exception being my Soma ES. It's really an odd duck: a sport bike that's designed with racks & fenders in mind.

Otherwise, I prefer my 650b Panasonic (which replaced my 650b-modified Trek 820). My Toei & Atlantis will be interesting in this role, once I've finished restoring them.

Not likely....on my 310 (stolen :( ) I went to 590mm BSD CR18 rims to be able to fit fenders - no room with 622mm, even though 630mm was stock..... It rode really well with 25-590 on the front and 37-590 on the back.

Big tires on a big bike for commuting are fun--it engenders a total Honey Badger mentality. The spinning up may be slower, but once it gets going it's like riding on top of a train (or truck or big object that moves). Really fun feeling.

Tires and tire sizes do make a difference, as do many things (just saying this as there are many threads discussing bike geometry and feel), but some bikes just feel good no matter what you put on them. The frame and you just 'click' and the rest of the pieces fall in line and it's a good time. Low end tubing, high end tubing, whatever. My Ross is that bike, 100%

Glad you've been able to get into biking more and notice the characteristics of your bikes. It's what I enjoy about C&V stuff and even newer bikes and how they compare. :)

I think the "sports" class of bikes make for great commuters. Sort of midway between racing and touring bikes. They usually have a bit more clearance than race bikes, eyelets for racks and fenders, and don't feel as sluggish as your typical touring bikes. Depending on your commute, quick handling is a plus, especially if your commute involves movement in traffic. Touring bikes with extra long wheelbases can be sluggish, whereas the "sports" category of bikes are a nice compromise with a more racier geometry in combination with reasonable chain stay length and tire clearances.

My Cilo Pacer makes for a nice commuter. It's equipped with mostly vintage Campagnolo NR parts, which some might consider too precious, but it's durable and reliable. It has eyelets for front/rear racks, 531 butted tubing for frame and forks, long but not overly-long chainstays, plenty of tire clearance. The main triangle angles are similar to my vintage race bikes, but the fork has a slightly more trail, and it's a bit longer in the rear triangle.

With 34mm tubulars:
http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/a...pseab3ltho.jpg

On the slog:
http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/a...pss2n0z4ra.jpg

I really dig your stem; is that a Pivo?

I'll see your 310 and raise you (wait..l mean lower you) a 210 that is my favorite. It's been my daily commuter for the last 7 years. The stickers say 'spline triple butted,' but it's not light. Stable, comfy, will haul all I need, and still lively enough. So, count me in. I've often said perhaps my taste in bikes maybe just isn't refined enough. I dunno, I think the 'lowly' Miyatas are great machines.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/a...psnsr6n5zm.jpg

[MENTION=370888]Chr0m0ly[/MENTION], we'd love to see pictures.

Having completed the same route/commute thousands of times, I find that different geometries really help relieve the boredom of the same bike. Early and late season I tend to prefer the tourer (fenders, rack) or sport geometry, then during long summer I migrate toward the racing geometry commuters. Depends on mood, weather etc but do appreciate the different style bikes, tire widths, etc. Last season I found for the standard river commute that fixed gear was a welcome addition as well and brings in a whole new feel on days you ride freewheels or climb hills.

Forgive the belated reply. Just noticed your comment...Thanks. The stem is not marked anywhere (this was a good excuse to do another periodic check for any cracks at edge of wedge slot). I believe it is a Pivo stem, or perhaps AVA? It's a French size whatever it is.

I also like the idea of using different bikes now and then. Commuting is the same route, every day. Mixing it up with a different bike now and then helps keep it fresh.

Right now I'm really enjoying this one:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/664/31...44ab082b_b.jpg

I think [MENTION=152773]noglider[/MENTION] said something about old Raleighs that I like, something about it feels like you're between the wheels rather than on top of them, I think. The day after reading that I was riding, and thinking, yeah, that's it!

Putting the load up front on a lowish trail bike makes it easy to get out of the saddle and push hard to get across busy intersections quickly, and for the two small hills that I encounter every day.

And don't forget when you're commuting...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/456/32...3ac6f6c6_b.jpg

Pictures!
I used to be able to post from my phone but there was a site update a while (a year? 2?) ago and now that doesn't work.

What's a good, free, and simple photo hosting site to add photos with?

Also, I put some 32mm kenda Kwests on the ST600 and it's definitely made the ride livelier. I like the Honey Badger aspect of the fat tires better, but I need a rain bike and with the Canti brakes and aluminum frame that's the Cannondale. I wonder if I could squeeze those monsters on the 310...

So if the tires make such a difference in ride quality then what does the frame geometry do? To educate my butt do I put the same wheels and tires on the bikes and try them out?

A proper commuting bike is a sports touring bike. There's a dedicated thread here to them on C&V.

They've enjoyed a renaissance in today's adventure/gravel road bikes.

Kind of slack, endurance geometry, low trail, low bottom bracket and a stable feel. Perfect for all-round riding.

They have their place.

Except I don't know what bikes are built that way nowadays. The new all-road or gravel bike trend seems to fit the bill. I've looked at Raleigh and Jamis's websites and I'm tempted to replace some of my bikes with a new bike. But I probably won't. I'm only tempted.

I use postimage.org. It's the simplest site I can find and it allows rotation of the pictures once you upload. (And doesn't require an account.)

Well...

Here's a short list; granted, this is just off the top of my head (so it's obviously incomplete)...

There's Soma's ES (a.k.a. Smoothie) & especially the Stanyan (now sadly discontinued; possibly the prettiest mass-produced bike of the past 15 years)... The Stanyan was a truly fine example of the type; almost a clone of the RB-2, in terms of geometry.

Velo Orange's Pass Hunter certainly fits the bill, as do Salsa's Vaya & Marrakesh (which is a very modern touring bike, with sporting lines); Surly's Pacer...

Gunnar makes a couple of bikes, the Crosshairs & the Roadie, both of which (like those of parent-company Waterford) can be ordered custom with any number of braze-ons...

I think New Albion's Privateer & Homebrew are good, inexpensive candidates for commuting...

Beyond that, you're in the high-end market; Waterford's RS14 & ST14; various Rivs; Breadwinner offers the B-Road in about the same price range (which, personally, I couldn't justify for a commuting bike- especially since there are dozens of C & V frames that will do the job- often with more flair- for a lot less outlay).

Anyway, that's my two cent's worth; feel free to add to it.

That or good ol' Facebook if you're already on it (like me). I have a few private albums that 'host' all my BF pictures for free. Convenient.