Raleigh Competition Mk. II with Suntour dropouts?
 

Hi all,

I'm looking at getting a bike frame for a build (with some custom work done as well) and I found someone selling a Raleigh Competition frame that looks like a '75 or '76 Mk. II. I know that these usually have Huret dropouts, but I have heard some have Campy dropouts and can use "normal" (non-Huret) RDs.

The seller sent me some pictures of the dropouts. The fork has Huret dropouts but the rear has Suntour GTs?! Maybe this isn't as surprising to some of you as it is to me.

The lettering on the bike is faded, and the fork is definitely from a Raleigh Comp; sloping fork crown with 531 blades and tons of clearance. The frame looks just like a Raleigh Competition as well but the decals are faded. I know things were weird at the Raleigh plant around this time (pumping out bikes for the boom) so I guess I'm wondering if it's more likely that the frame isn't actually a Raleigh Competition (but with a Comp fork) or if Raleigh used Suntour GT dropouts on some Raleigh Competitions in the late 70s.

We got to have pics, the more the better. ;)

I'd believe anything on a Competition. Mine's a '73 with the Huret. I paid framebuilder to modify it to be modern day compatible. (Just a small part of the work. I got a Friday-Monday bike. Someone forgot to braze the lugs. I think it got tacked or pinned, then the builder went to lunch. Long lunch,too many beers. Went home. Monday morning the frame got sent down the line. Painter saw the gaps and did an admirable job of filling them.)

I started riding gravel on the bike from almost day one as I saw how wonderful those old lines were on rough stuff. Here, gravel is often steep with big-time washboard at the bottom. I knew there was missing braze under the DT derailleur stop and I've lived through enough frame failures. So for peace of mind, I had my builder send it out to be stripped, then inspect it. In his words, the paint was the glue holding the tubes together. Two were cracked. That dropout was a small part pf ~$1000 of work.

I love the bike. But I will never be able to revere Raleigh. Too bad. I used to race against the finest Raleighs in America.

Ben

Yeah, I should know better.

Well I'm no expert but definitely looks Raleigh to me, something going on with Huret up front and Suntour out back as you said. Lugs look older for having Suntour dropouts. Fork looks the same as a Super tourer which also has a Huret fork crown.

Without running out to the garage, that looks like a Competition. Not identical to mine, but close. (Mine has the rather unique Nervex lugs with circles cut out and squares in the outline. Funny, but I heard not long before I got my frame that Nervex made lugs; not just these lugs and these lugs but any lugs anyone wanted to have them make. So apparently there are a lot of different Nervex lugs out there. I never lugs like yours before.

Ben

FWIW I've been paying attention to Suntour GS DOs lately as my Crescent Pepita has them (F&R). Cycleurope has confirmed, by SN, that my frame is 1974 and one Swedish site has a 'spec sheet' that also shows the 92319s came with Suntour GS DOs that early in the 70s.

Note, I've also recently seen Suntour catalog pages, in a January C&V thread, that show the GS DOs have a 'D dimension' (distance from the center of the axle to the center of the RD mount hole) of 29mm vs the 'Campy std" of 26mm. This means that the RD is a bit further away from the FW than with a Campy DO. I'm lead to believe that the Suntour RDs (ex: Cyclone) liked this distance. My '80 Nishiki has the GS DO with the 29mm dimension and it's Cyclone works great. I'm not sure if other RDs like this or work better with the top pulley closer to the FW. My Raleigh Pro has the 26mm dimension Campy DO and the Nuovo Record RD is happy there. I had no idea that there were SO MANY different choices with DOs and claw hangers.

Keep this in mind as you do the build.

1973 and part of 1974 have Huret Dropouts. It's unlikely that anything after 1974 ever had Huret dropouts. Who knows when that fork was brazed. It could have sat in the factory for a few years before they put it on a frame. Mid-70s are a mixed bag, but by the end of the 70s they are using Campagnolo dropouts. Suntour GS were used around 1976 on a lot of other bikes of similar quality, so I don't see a problem with having them on this bike.

I see no problem with that being a Competition that was shipped from the factory with those features.

What's the serial # under the BB?

Can't say I've ever seen a cable guide quite like the one just above your BB.

The serial number will definitely remove the question of what year it is, but it sure looks like a legitimate Competition to me. I'm guessing it will be a '75.

Serial: WK6005261.

So this is a 1976.

Thanks for the help (and history lesson). Didn't realize that Raleigh "ran out" of Huret dropouts so early. I guess I haven't seen a lot of examples of Raleigh Competitions, but of the handful of come across, this was the first Suntour dropout I've seen. Glad to know I've got one of the few.

I don't see a problem with the Suntour dropouts, since there nicely done I would consider them a plus on this frame set since they will allow you to easily use a nicer standard type long cage RD if you want.

Very little would suprise me from Raleigh.

My 1979 Competition had Campagnolo dropouts, but the sloping fork crown (like yours) did not match the catalog nor other Competitions I have seen from that year. Kinda sorry I sold that one, it was a great bike.

Raleigh was known for wavering specs during the 1970s (which in the USA had two bike booms). We saw a lot of substitutions on bikes just to get them out the doors. We learned to not quote the specs until the bike was in our hands and working. Andy

Purely speculation, but I wonder if 1976 was a transition years of sorts for that model before it became the Comp GS in '77.

76/77 do some to be somewhat transition years for Raliegh as this was the time frame were they seemed to be switching from French and English parts to the Raliegh branded Japanese made parts on most of the models.

Yes, these two reasons are part of my concern. I don't want this to be a Competition G.S. frame with a Mk. II fork, since I'm looking for Mk. II geometry. Considering the date of the frame, I think it's safe to say it isn't a G.S., unless it was a transition year and they tinkered with the geometry. I think that's far less likely than mismatched dropouts or lugs, but I'll measure when I get the frame in hand just to make sure.

Thanks all!

Comp GS
 

The Competition GS would have had Campy drop outs. However, the frame in your photo appears to have a short wheelbase like the GS. The Competition MK's had a relatively, noticeably, long wheelbase. One could speculate that it is a Competition MK fork (fairly certain it is), but that the frame itself is an early GS that for some reason came with SunTour dropouts--- OR, the frame could be from a different Raleigh offering for a different market such as Europe that somehow made its way here and had the fork installed at a later date.

It doesn't look like the chain stay bridge is drilled for fenders. Is this normally drilled on a Mk. II? GS?

Not on the GS

So looks like you've got a "tweener". I'd bet that the chainstays are shorter than the earlier models. Measure from the BB to dropouts at the intersetion of the seat and chain stays and let me know, I can compare it to my '73 and to the GS frames I have. Another interesting note is the dented chainstays. The GS models didn't use dented stays (at least none that I've seen, but who knows with vintage Raleighs?) For you this would be a good thing, since you're wanting a 650b X42mm tire capable frame. Might ride more like a Motobecane Grand Record - not a bad thing at all.

You buy it yet, or holding out for more info? If you're really wanting to 650b it, put a rear wheel on it to check clearance.

Attachment 555349

I am getting the frame for sure, but I can't pick it up until the 22nd. Here's a picture of the previous owner's setup with Hetres. They rode it in this setup for a while and then had a custom frame built.

The chain stays do look shorter to me, but it still seems to have enough clearance without dimpling for 42s. I had planned on dimpling anyway if clearances were uncomfortably tight.

Checking one of the photos you posted, looks like it already is dimpled. At any rate, the owner had Hetres on it, so there's your "proof in the pudding".

My '74 MK II does not have a drilled chain stay bridge.

Sorry to resurrect a long-dead thread, but I have to thank the lot of you for all this information. I recently picked up a `76 Competition, serial # WK6005196, which tells me that it was manufactured within a few days of jPrichard10's. Mine also has Suntour dropouts, so we can probably confirm the "tweener" status. Looking forward to a fun restoration project on this bad boy - thanks to this thread, I know for sure that it's 100% original!