Salamandrine 

I'm finally getting around to setting up my Clem Smith, and can't decide on a stem length. I know a few of the C&V crowd here have both regular road bikes and upright "gentleman" bikes. Is there a rule of thumb for how much longer TT + stem length should be when converting? Nitto dirt drop stem preferred, since I could put dirt drop bars on it if I want at some later time. Perhaps it would be best to buy a cheapo stem(s) first to test positions. Any advice at all is appreciated.

I already have Albatross bars, so that's decided for now. Effective TT length is quite long at 64. My preferred road bike set up is 58cm TT +11cm stem with ~2" drop to the bars. This is for fire road cruising/camping, and piddling around to my neighborhood grocery store, etc. Obviously I'm going for more of a comfort position.

Another thing only sort of related: is there any point to knobby tires if it isn't muddy? Most conditions around here are hard pack with patches of loose dry sand. Besides that I've ridden a zillion miles on dirt and single track with a road bike on 28c semi slicks. I'm thinkin' Schwalbe Big Bens are better multi condition tires, partly because I can't stand riding knobbies on pavement, even for a few blocks.

SJX426 

Knobbies are over rated! Heck tread is over rated!

noglider 

There's no rule of thumb for stem size when converting. Some upright bars don't sweep back, i.e. the kind we call flat bars. All others have a backward sweep. Presumably you are getting upright bars so you don't have to reach as far down and as far forward, but it might be that you want to keep one dimension the same while changing the other.

I ended up with lots of stems and bars in my collection because of my experimentation, and the same may come true for you.

As much as I like upright bars for short trips, I get tired with them quickly. It's mostly because of the reach, not the height. My own preference seems to be that I like my bars to be slightly lower than my saddle (i.e. not too low) but I like them to be far away.

Knobby tires are useful if the surface is loose. They don't offer any advantage when the surface is not loose, and they suck a lot of energy. I ride gravel roads on road tires. I can't ride the roughest stuff that way, but they're good enough for me.

romperrr 

I don't know of any rule of thumb, but here's my opinion.

It really depends on the type of upright bars. Bars that sweep back, like north roads, I like a longer stem; straight or mostly straight bars, I'll use the same as my roadie, bars that put my far forward like the m'stache, alaba's, etc, I'll go with a short and high stem.

Hope that helps.

Salamandrine 

Thanks for the advice everyone. I guess as I suspected there isn't a ROT. The Nitto Albatross bars are pretty similar to North roads but with a little longer grip section, and they're flippable. This is sort of an experiment for me, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'll need to experiment.

You may be right. Oh well. Perhaps it will end up with dirt drops on it after all.



I guess the advantage of smoother tread for off road is that they take less energy overall on long rides. Sure, there's going to be places where they are a disadvantage, but on a long ride over mixed terrain, knobs get old quick.

Sir_Name 

^Agreed with the above. Being able to swap stems is ideal, but short of that try to get an idea of where the Albatross bars will put your hands as compared with drops assuming same stem clamp location and go from there. It may be that in the more upright position you'll want the bars to come closer to you. Or maybe you don't want to be too upright, in which case a longer stem may work.

The fact the the effective top tube is so much longer than usual adds another piece to the equation...

I'm guessing the rest of the bike isn't built yet, but if you can get a quick mock up with wheels and seat/post and maybe another set of bars+stem that may help you get in the ballpark - balance in a doorframe and see where you want your hands.

Tough to say with so many open ends and not being able to compare to your existing position on the bike with different bars...which is why we're here on the internet guessing out of our keyboards. I can say that on the bike I have with similar bars I wound up with a bar/stem combo that put my hands half-way between where the drops and tops would have been with my typical drop bars. That works well for my needs. Good general riding position that's not too upright nor aggressive, then I can slide my hands into the forward-most section of those bars (roughly equivalent to the albatross shape) tuck and get out of the wind. Depends on how sporty you want to be on the grocery run.

IMO, no need for knobbies on hardpack.

Salamandrine 

You guessed right , but I just got the (non disk silver!) hubs. Perhaps I'll build up wheels this weekend.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious though. It eluded me. I think I can scrounge enough parts to do a quick mock up. I could even put the Albatross bars on my PX10 to get some idea of what's going on. (60cm TT)

I don't think I'll need to be too sporty on the grocery run, but I s'pose I could get sporty on a dirt road. Headwinds are a great incentive...

Sir_Name 

No problem, it's my specialty.

dweenk

I have 2 Raleigh Sports gents bikes. One has the original Raleigh stem that has 50mm reach; the other has a GB stem with 95mm reach. The difference is in the bars, so my opinion is "try it".

Classtime 

I converted one of my road bikes with Soma Oxford bars which are like the Albatross but not heat treated(or as pricey). I just kept the same stem and left it level. But I wanted to get aero from time to time by grabbing the front of the bars. I found that I needed the bars pointed down a bit so that my hands would rest on them more naturally when just cruising to the store. I sometimes pull a trailer up into the San Gabriels and will probably leave it like that. But if I wanted a dedicated cruise to the beach with a basket bike, I would shorten the stem or/and flip it up.

echo victor 

I'll try to measure the distance from saddle to grip on one of my road bikes and my more upright bike and post for reference. I've found that the upright bike is reasonably comfortable for a while, but by about 10 miles or so I'm wishing I had drop bars. The other thing I find is that if I'm riding with friends who have cruisers I tend to try to be more upright (i.e., slower) and grip the bars further back (almost by the bar-ends, occasionally), whereas if I'm riding alone, I'm much more likely to ride forward on the bars with my hands right on the on the brake hoods (yeah, I used drop bar brakes oriented horizontally-ish).

I believe Sheldon would agree that the knobbies aren't worth it except on a very loose surface.

I think this is probably true for a lot of people. Maybe we need to start a Box O' Stems and send it around to people who are trying to get their fit dialed in.

Good point - my bars are angled down just slightly, too.

Andrew R Stewart 

I haven't read every word in this thread but I'll add that riders use to drop bars can be sensitive to body/leg angles. So if the flat/upright bars move the shoulders higher (and the hands closer to the hips) then moving the seat further back often feels more natural a stance. There's a reason that British bikes had such laid back seat tubes. Andy

canklecat

I ride a lot of gravel and chat trails and some mowed grassy levees and open fields, usually in dry conditions. I haven't found any need for knobbies. My comfort hybrid has heavy duty chevron tread Michelins (bulletproof, very resistant to slashes and punctures, but heavy at 1,100 gm); my 1990s rigid fork hardtail mountain bike has Continental Speed Rides, a 700x42 variation of Conti's dry condition Cyclocross Speed tire, with light diamond or file tread (under 500 gm).

Both are good enough for my combination of pavement and gravel rides. Only time I've been unable to get traction was climbing some bone dry loose black gumbo on a fairly steep hill, and wet grassy levees. In dry weather the rear tire slipped a bit on those same grassy levee climbs but regained traction and climbed without having to dab a foot down or restart.

The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme GreenGuard appears to be a great value in an all around tire for mixed conditions, with low measured rolling resistance. It's just slightly above my usual budget of $20 each for tires, and probably worth stretching to the usual $30-$40 per tire cost of the Schwalbes.

I'm considering albatross or flipped North Roads bars for my mountain bike. I like the slight riser bars I substituted for the original low flat bars, but the albatross or North Roads bars would be more comfortable for me (bum back and neck) and probably a bit more aerodynamic.

Sounds odd, but I've noticed a friend who put albatross bars on his hybrids is a bit faster than I am now, and looks very relaxed despite the upright position. I'm betting the arms-tucked position is more aerodynamic. His elbows are tucked closer to his torso, and armpits closed. My riding position is slightly less upright, but with arms away from my chest and armpits are catching air. It's a slight difference but seems to matter over our casual paced 12-14 mph rides on windy days when I noticed I'm having trouble keeping up. Then on hills and rides without wind I have no trouble keeping pace.

Craptacular8

Nothing to add knowledge-wise here, but an interesting discussion on fitting north road style bars on otherwise sporty bikes. My next project is a Raleigh mixte from the mid 80's. it originally sported drop bars, and a sporty riding position. So, not a slack seat tube, which I know I don't enjoy riding. I was thinking something along the lines of Nitto Bosco bars to get it really upright. I don't think I need that much rise though. I looked at the Soma bars and velo orange offerings, because the Bosco bar I want is out of stock. What would be similar in your opinion, and will this kind of uprightness lend itself to allowing someone substantially shorter than me finding the fit tolerable for short rides? Wondering if this style bar will allow a wider range of riders, the same, or less?

Salamandrine 

To clarify a bit - despite the onset of middle age - I am not uncomfortable on dropped bars. It's just that I want to build sort of a mountain/touring/cruiser thing, and I do not like flat MTB bars, either for comfort or for looks. Given that when I was 10, I managed to take my 3 speed out for 20-25 mile rides; it would seem like what was good enough then would be good now. Ideally, I want more of a tourist/trail riding position, not bolt upright. I suppose that as this is an experiment for me, I'm going to just have to experiment. Maybe I'll ask Riv what they think too.

This turned out to be a good discussion. I hope it is useful to any regular recreational cyclist considering North Road type bars.

noglider 

In that case, Salamandrine, while you consider North Road bars you may want to consider what used to be called all-rounder bars. They have a slight sweep and are not flat. They give me a semi-upright position, and I like that my hands are not close to my body. I put them on my Raleigh Super Course, and I put extensions on them so I can reach even farther forward when I need a change or when I'm climbing.

Classtime 

Both the Albatros and the Oxford are not exactly what I was looking for when I did my conversion. I wanted something narrower like that on a Three speed Raleigh but I also wanted bar ends. Around town with traffic, sidewalks, parking meters, pets, etc, I want something around 38mm. I guess I will spring for thumbies or pods or whatever they are called to put my shifters on the bars above the grips.

AND I'd suggest cloth tape from the bar ends to the stem which creates infinite hand positions.

Paramount1973 

Here is the Nitto version of the old GB Allrounder bars.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...ls_o02_s00_i00

Charles Wahl

I'm a fan of the Dirt Drop stem, but there aren't a lot of forward reach options in it: basically 80 or 100 mm. Suits me OK, but maybe not others. Also, they do come in two different lengths -- I've found the longer one harder to locate recently. I'll speculate that if you're trying to graft Albatross bars onto a road bike, you might be more comfortable with 100, unless you really want to "sit up and beg" as the roadies so derisively call it. Technomics, of course, (and the Pearl and Tallux variations) are available in more reach lengths, and they're long. Apparently Kalloy is now knocking off the Dirt Drop too; YMMV.

Also, one needs to be careful about the bar diameter: RivBike sells the 26.0, Ben's Cycle both 26 and 25.4 (though neither in stock in both short and long), and Tree Fort Bikes only 25.4.

Finally, Nitto makes several bars that are neither "flat" nor really wide and swept back. Urban Riser, Urban Cycle, etc
https://nitto-tokyo.sakura.ne.jp/bar-E.html

Salamandrine 

Yeah, the Dirt Drop stem is at the top of my list. It has the other advantage of being suited to drop or dirt drop bars, should I ever tire of being upright and gentlemanly with the North Road style bars. I have the Albatross bars already, so I am going to try them for now. The other thing is I kinda think I at least want to try out the Rivendell style build up, assuming it makes a certain amount of sense. (Nitto Dirt drop + Albatross is one of the official specs)

Anyhow, after a bit of sitting on my bikes leaning against a counter and holding the Albatross bars, it is apparent that long is good. I guess I'll go with 10cm then, short size probably.

This isn't a road bike, btw, Clem Smith is more like a retro style MTB frame, but with 29er wheels. Effective top tube is 64 or ~5-6cm more than I usually ride. That should get the bars forward enough.

#Classtime - Yeah, taping the bars to the stem is part of the plan. THX everyone.

ramzilla

I like about a 30 degree rise with a long 2" - 3" reach extension. But, I'm a big 6'-1" dude. My girls like a 30 to 45 degree rise with very short to no 0" - 1" extension. But hey, they like stuff like grip shifters too. You absolutely need handlebars that "rise" up some distance (about 50mm) & "sweep" back (about 20 - 30 degrees).

noglider 

Someone on another thread mentioned the VO Postino bars. Another to consider.

Classtime 

Sal,
Of course you've seen this--
Reviewed: Rivendell's Clem Smith Jr at 2000 Miles

Cool bike.

ocsawdust

I've messed with this for a couple of years on 6 or so bikes. Each bike was it's own canvas pretty much. Stem risers, short and long were experimented with and stem lengths as well, long, short, fat bars, skinny bars. Cables need some extra length, all 4. Bars I've used have been fsa metropolis ( on-one mary the same) , vo postino, soma oxford, something promax ( can't find them again, they were my favorite) , voodoo scorcher, jones hbar, a few others. For now I've settled with the oxford which i extended about 2". Those bars take the bar end shifters of which 3/4" dowel fit just perfect. The adjustable stems i have found great because i will set the bars up one way but many times out riding i stop and tilt everything straight up for the return ride home in comfort.

Keep an open mind, try different setups. Bike swapmeets and craigslist are great. The swapmeet at long beach veterns stadium has a lot of bicycle stuff even tho its billed a motorcycle swapmeet.

Smooth tires for me anywhere from 1.25 to 2 inches. But 2 can be too big and 1.25 sometimes seems too small, but thats what different bikes are for!

I also like some extra stem riser knob. I've found the chalk bags the bouldering climbers use to be great bike bags and if found on sale a great bargain and the knob is a perfect spot.

Classtime, thanks for the post on the commuter. Been looking for those bar knobs he mentioned and pictures. Been using topeak water bottle handlebar mounts, rubber knobs will be soo much nicer!

Wspsux

Honestly, just send Grant an email over at Rivendell. He is super helpful, and I'm sure he will put you at ease with your decision. The clem is very long in the top tube to acommodate (sp) swept back upright bars. Getting one soon!