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Today's frame ID thread

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Today's frame ID thread

Old 05-02-17, 05:12 PM
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velomateo
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Today's frame ID thread

Picked this up on the way home from work today. I don't search CL for fixed gear bikes, but the lines on this frame seemed much more than it's current condition. Here's the specs and a few pics.

68mm (English) bottom bracket.
S/N 91A3656
Seat post measures 27.2 mm
and it's not stuck. Win.
Shimano dropouts.
Seat stays are welded to the seat lug, fastback style.
Measures 58x58.
So the 56 at the end of the S/N, isn't the frame size.









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Old 05-02-17, 05:17 PM
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Don't know what it is, but it certainly looks promising!
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Old 05-02-17, 05:53 PM
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Yeah, I thought so too. I'm hoping someone will recognize some of the interesting features of this frame.
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Old 05-02-17, 06:52 PM
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Lol @ that brake!
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Old 05-02-17, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquorLad View Post
Lol @ that brake!
I know. The headset is cobbled together from different units and has a 5mm gap between the bearing and the adjustment nut. Apparently build quality was not a priority.
I'm just glad nothing was hacked off the frame and I haven't found any dents.
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Old 05-02-17, 08:36 PM
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Not sure what it might be, but lots of things point to a fairly high-end frame.
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Old 05-02-17, 08:47 PM
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That bb shell cable guide is screaming at me right now. That with the chainstay bridge are ...
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Old 05-03-17, 12:07 AM
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@T-Mar might know from the serial number, but I KNOW that the way the seat stay is beveled "straight" while the chainstay is beveled "angled" was a clue for some brand in another mystery thread years back...can't recall what that brand was....for some reason "Panasonic" comes up from the depths, but I wouldn't put much faith in that. The shot-in fastback seat cluster is also a unique-ish take on the Brampton Victor style though I can't say I recognize that particular version from any certain brand, before. Really the serial number might be the best clue you have.
Afraid the chainstay bridge is a very common "spool" type that Gipiemme (as well as some others) made, probably an Italian bit but does that mean the FRAME is?
Probably not.

Last edited by unworthy1; 05-03-17 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 05-03-17, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
@T-Mar might know from the serial number, but I KNOW that the way the seat stay is beveled "straight" while the chainstay is beveled "angled" was a clue for some brand in another mystery thread years back...can't recall what that brand was....for some reason "Panasonic" comes up from the depths, but I wouldn't put much faith in that. The shot-in fastback seat cluster is also a unique-ish take on the Brampton Victor style though I can't say I recognize that particular version from any certain brand, before. Really the serial number might be the best clue you have.
Afraid the chainstay bridge is a very common "spool" type that Gipiemme (as well as some others) made, probably an Italian bit but does that mean the FRAME is?
Probably not.
Thanks for the input and the T-mar assist. I know I've seen some of these features before as well. Panasonic is good place to start. I feel like it's probably Japanese, definitely higher end. I'm going pull the fork and bottom bracket on my days off and look for other clues.

Last edited by velomateo; 05-03-17 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 05-03-17, 09:38 AM
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T-Mar posted a thread full of serial number formats that might help you ID the maker, I forget the thread title so I can't find it for you.
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Old 05-03-17, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
...the way the seat stay is beveled "straight" while the chainstay is beveled "angled" was a clue for some brand in another mystery thread years back...can't recall what that brand was....for some reason "Panasonic" comes up from the depths...
Correct, again!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Panasonic PR-6000a.JPG (37.7 KB, 200 views)
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Old 05-03-17, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
Correct, again!

Doing some searches here too, and found the same thing.

@T-Mar, any thoughts on the serial number format? I'm guessing "91" is the model year. The "A" could represent a month, as it does with other Japanese frames.
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Old 05-03-17, 12:03 PM
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1991 Panasonic is not a bad place to start. There's actually a thread on it on this forum, with the 1991 Panasonic brochure:

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Old 05-03-17, 01:23 PM
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I was looking through there too, but I don't see anything with a matching seat stay cluster. I also checked '92, in case that 91 was just a year of production, but no joy.

Did any other noted manufacturers use the same angled/straight bevel design near the dropouts?
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Old 05-03-17, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ecnewell View Post
I was looking through there too, but I don't see anything with a matching seat stay cluster. I also checked '92, in case that 91 was just a year of production, but no joy.

Did any other noted manufacturers use the same angled/straight bevel design near the dropouts?
Same here, I haven't found anything with same seat cluster in the Panasonic scans. I still believe it's of Japanese origin.
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Old 05-03-17, 01:56 PM
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That seat cluster is really unique, as are the angled bevels on the ends of the chainstays. It may take a while, but those are going to make for a positive identification, eventually.

It looks like it's almost certainly high end Japanese, but it could be something else, possibly American.
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Old 05-03-17, 02:14 PM
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if the fork is original, i would probably pull it, if not done already, and take a look for info on the steerer and crown. IME, manufacturers sometimes mark them up with stuff.

Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 05-03-17 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 05-03-17, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by velomateo View Post
Doing some searches here too, and found the same thing.

@T-Mar, any thoughts on the serial number format? I'm guessing "91" is the model year. The "A" could represent a month, as it does with other Japanese frames.
My immediate reaction was that '91" was an open format year code (i.e. 1991) and that 'A' was a month or fortnight indicator. Even if 'A' was the year inidicator, the typical Asian convention would have it being a calendar year ending in '1'. Based on the frame features, such as dual bottle bosses and a pump peg, this still points towards 1991.

A for it being Panasonic (brand), it is similar to, but not an exact match for the Matsu****a (manufacturer) format. It is possible that they changed the format in the 1990s to provide a decade distinction in the format. They would not have been the first manufacturer to do this. Unfortunately, Panasonic abandoned the American market in 1989, so I have no 1990s serial numbers for comparison. Hopefully some European members with 1990s Panasonic will see this and post their S/N.

While the fastback stay arrangement does not provide an exact match for any of the 1991 European models, for which there are on-line catalogs, it's possible that this arrangement was geared towards a different market or, more likely, is due to a contract build for a private label.

The fork may be off the shelf item, so I'd be removing it and checking for a manufacturer logo and date code. That should provide some correlation, at least for the year.

Last edited by T-Mar; 05-03-17 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 05-03-17, 03:17 PM
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If it weren't for the Asian serial number format I would say it's Belgian. Italian looks, BSA-threaded BB, 27.2mm seatpost and Shimano drop-outs all fit that profile nicely.
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Old 05-03-17, 04:50 PM
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@T-Mar, thanks for your detailed reply. I'll be pulling the fork tomorrow and maybe it offer some help. Hopefully some of our Euro friends may have info regarding Panasonics after 1989 too.
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Old 05-03-17, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
If it weren't for the Asian serial number format I would say it's Belgian. Italian looks, BSA-threaded BB, 27.2mm seatpost and Shimano drop-outs all fit that profile nicely.
I'll give that a look. The only Belgian frame I can think of is a Diamant (sp?). I know it not an Eddy.
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Old 05-03-17, 10:22 PM
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there are LOTS more Belgian brands besides Diamant (and Eddy Merckx), and non-fixie is just the guy to fill you in.
It's (Benelux) an interesting possibility so keep digging into the details (like the fork steerer) but I still feel this may more likely be plain Japanese.
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Old 05-04-17, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ecnewell View Post
Did any other noted manufacturers use the same angled/straight bevel design near the dropouts?

Some Kalavinka road frames have the angled chainstay ends:









as did Sannow (rest of the set here):




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Old 05-04-17, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MauriceMoss View Post
Some Kalavinka road frames have the angled chainstay ends:









as did Sannow (rest of the set here):




Wow, that's interesting. Thanks so much for all the photos. This forum is such a great resource for this sort of thing.
I will post up some additional photos later today, after I finish tearing down the bike.
Lots of good leads.
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Old 05-04-17, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by velomateo View Post
Wow, that's interesting. Thanks so much for all the photos. This forum is such a great resource for this sort of thing.
There's also a thread with examples of fastback seat-stays. It might be worth browsing and seeing if any of them match. (Not to mention, they're lovely!)
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...eat-stays.html
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