Cracked rear wheel (Helico Matic?)
05-02-17, 10:16 PM
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Cracked rear wheel (Helico Matic?)
About three years ago, I bought a Peugeot PXN10E Super Competition ('81?) and haven't done much too it besides putting a Brooks saddle on it and some Shimano SPD pedals. Oddjob helped me find this bike and many others here helped convinced me to buy it and get it operational for RAGBRAI in 2014. A couple of kids later and a flood in our building's basement and this poor bike hasn't been played with much since. I have a friend who wants to knock RAGBRAI off his bucket list, so I need to lose 20 pounds in the next couple of months by riding the heck out of this bike. As I was inspecting it today, I noticed a crack in the rear wheel. I'm assuming that happened during the pounding some of those Iowa roads gave it three years ago, but not really sure. While it doesn't seem very severe I most certainly don't want to ride it like that.
So I've come back to the forum to mooch off your combined brilliance. The wheel (maybe this part is called the hub?) has the words "HELICO MATIC" still visible on it, with what looks like a Maillard "m" logo. I've never replaced a wheel before, but doing so for a classic bike with an "innovative" hub sounds even more daunting. Right now, I just want to get the bike operational with as limited time and expense as possible (must train!). Perhaps later as time and expenses are less "tight" I can do the OE (or close enough) route. Do I have those two options?
If it helps, there's a MAVIC sticker on the front rim, but no such sticker on the back. Also, the tire on the rear (which I'll replace once I figure out how to handle the rear wheel) is an Action Messenger 700x23c.
So I've come back to the forum to mooch off your combined brilliance. The wheel (maybe this part is called the hub?) has the words "HELICO MATIC" still visible on it, with what looks like a Maillard "m" logo. I've never replaced a wheel before, but doing so for a classic bike with an "innovative" hub sounds even more daunting. Right now, I just want to get the bike operational with as limited time and expense as possible (must train!). Perhaps later as time and expenses are less "tight" I can do the OE (or close enough) route. Do I have those two options?
If it helps, there's a MAVIC sticker on the front rim, but no such sticker on the back. Also, the tire on the rear (which I'll replace once I figure out how to handle the rear wheel) is an Action Messenger 700x23c.
05-03-17, 09:58 AM
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I would not trust that hub any longer, good catch on seeing the crack. Options are replace the wheel with whatever you decide is both compatible with the rest of the bike (knowing this likely means a new cog set and chain too) or finding a Helicomatic hub/wheel to steel from for parts. I'm no expert in these hubs, when they were current many mechanics didn't really like their uncommon axles, cones, balls, cog sets and with no real bennies we saw them as an answer to the marketing dept's need to be different. not to have a better working bike. (There's a reason that they left the market...) But if you decide on option 2 you do have hope as there's a lot of these wheels lurking in basements and garages as they were frequently replaced with wheels that can be serviced easily and in any LBS. Finding these people will be the challenge.
Again the quick option (and the one with the best long term lifespan) is to simple replace the wheel with a current one. Andy (who understands that cost is about the future servicing and one's time/efforts in the present as well as about the price of a part).
Again the quick option (and the one with the best long term lifespan) is to simple replace the wheel with a current one. Andy (who understands that cost is about the future servicing and one's time/efforts in the present as well as about the price of a part).
05-03-17, 10:37 AM
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Uh oh - frame spacing?
Thanks, Andy. I was reading this page while at work today:
Bicycle Frame/Hub Spacing
I guess I'm going to need to measure my frame, but I'm assuming it's 126mm.
1) It sounds like the "cheapest" option might be to "upgrade" to a modern wheel set and bend the frame to accommodate a modern 130mm rear hub.
2) A less sacrilegious (this doesn't bother me short term), low effort option would be to swap in a more "available" vintage rear wheel, hub, cogs, axle (fully assembled) with at 126mm width. I guess, Andy, your first option is this one and the way I was leaning. I just couldn't figure out if they made "modern" wheels in the 126mm width, or if I'd be stuck with trying to find an older, used one.
3) The least sacrilegious, highest effort option (or highest cost if I try to get a shop to do it), would be to disassemble the the current rear wheel, swapping out the rear hub for another HELICO MATIC Rear Hub from Ebay. Your second option, Andy.
I'd be reluctant to go with option 1 and never be able to go back to option 3, but I'm not hard core set against that since I'm not exactly a bike collector. And Andy, your point about time/effort is well taken with me. I absolutely do not have the kind of free time I used to. Not just time to "do", but also the time needed to "learn" how to do. I love to do and learn, and would prefer that option, but realistically I can't count on that option in the short term (quick enough to get this bike back operational to train for RAGBRAI this summer).
Bicycle Frame/Hub Spacing
I guess I'm going to need to measure my frame, but I'm assuming it's 126mm.
1) It sounds like the "cheapest" option might be to "upgrade" to a modern wheel set and bend the frame to accommodate a modern 130mm rear hub.
2) A less sacrilegious (this doesn't bother me short term), low effort option would be to swap in a more "available" vintage rear wheel, hub, cogs, axle (fully assembled) with at 126mm width. I guess, Andy, your first option is this one and the way I was leaning. I just couldn't figure out if they made "modern" wheels in the 126mm width, or if I'd be stuck with trying to find an older, used one.
3) The least sacrilegious, highest effort option (or highest cost if I try to get a shop to do it), would be to disassemble the the current rear wheel, swapping out the rear hub for another HELICO MATIC Rear Hub from Ebay. Your second option, Andy.
I'd be reluctant to go with option 1 and never be able to go back to option 3, but I'm not hard core set against that since I'm not exactly a bike collector. And Andy, your point about time/effort is well taken with me. I absolutely do not have the kind of free time I used to. Not just time to "do", but also the time needed to "learn" how to do. I love to do and learn, and would prefer that option, but realistically I can't count on that option in the short term (quick enough to get this bike back operational to train for RAGBRAI this summer).
05-03-17, 10:40 AM
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I'm sure you'll get plenty of help/advice about the wheel. I just wanted to add my 2 cents about the desired weight loss. It's been my personal experience, and seems to be supported by quite a few studies that exercise in and of itself will do little if anything to help lose weight. Usually, people just increase their food intake in almost direct proportion to calories burned. In my case, I'd been stable at about 195 for 2-3 years before taking up cycling. Within about a month, with no obvious changes to my diet, I shot up to 205, and then remained stable there for another 2 years. It wasn't until I started eating low carb about 4 months ago that I started losing weight, and am now down to 190.
That isn't to say training isn't useful - you'll get much stronger, and in better cardiovascular shape. It's just that without modifying your diet, you'll likely be in better shape but still carrying that 20 lbs.
That isn't to say training isn't useful - you'll get much stronger, and in better cardiovascular shape. It's just that without modifying your diet, you'll likely be in better shape but still carrying that 20 lbs.
05-03-17, 10:59 AM
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Welcome back!! Don't get too intimidated by the Helicomatic. Malliard just found a novel way to mount their freewheel on the hub that actually gave the axle a bit more support.
So this is your only bike? If you had another bike with similar gearing, size range of rear cogs, the easiest thing would be just swap in another wheel.
Since you can't do that I recommend a trip to your local bike shop for a new wheel. The down side is you need a new freewheel since you current Helicomatic can't be mounted on a different hub. If it will easily mount into your frame you might want to consider a Shimano cassette hub with a 7 speed cassette. That might give you more gearing options and smoother shifting with the shimano hyperglide teeth on the cassette.
I hope this helps. OH if you want original gear there are plenty of Helicomatic hubs or used wheels and freewheels around, but I suspect from the tone of your post your more interested in getting the bike serviceable than keeping it original.
So this is your only bike? If you had another bike with similar gearing, size range of rear cogs, the easiest thing would be just swap in another wheel.
Since you can't do that I recommend a trip to your local bike shop for a new wheel. The down side is you need a new freewheel since you current Helicomatic can't be mounted on a different hub. If it will easily mount into your frame you might want to consider a Shimano cassette hub with a 7 speed cassette. That might give you more gearing options and smoother shifting with the shimano hyperglide teeth on the cassette.
I hope this helps. OH if you want original gear there are plenty of Helicomatic hubs or used wheels and freewheels around, but I suspect from the tone of your post your more interested in getting the bike serviceable than keeping it original.
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05-03-17, 11:00 AM
#6
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Ahhhh, the distinguished Maillard Helicomatic hub. The horror. The horror. Whenever I see one of those things it makes me want to cringe. Run, run away, don't walk. Get another set of wheels. There are plenty of affordable 700 wheel sets that will work. Niagra, Amazon, or somebody usually has a pair on sale for less than $150 or so. My favorite inexpensive go to wheels are the Weinmann LP18 36h rims w/Origin 8 hubs. Great value. Have fun.
05-03-17, 11:42 AM
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I'm sure you'll get plenty of help/advice about the wheel. I just wanted to add my 2 cents about the desired weight loss. It's been my personal experience, and seems to be supported by quite a few studies that exercise in and of itself will do little if anything to help lose weight. Usually, people just increase their food intake in almost direct proportion to calories burned. In my case, I'd been stable at about 195 for 2-3 years before taking up cycling. Within about a month, with no obvious changes to my diet, I shot up to 205, and then remained stable there for another 2 years. It wasn't until I started eating low carb about 4 months ago that I started losing weight, and am now down to 190.
That isn't to say training isn't useful - you'll get much stronger, and in better cardiovascular shape. It's just that without modifying your diet, you'll likely be in better shape but still carrying that 20 lbs.
That isn't to say training isn't useful - you'll get much stronger, and in better cardiovascular shape. It's just that without modifying your diet, you'll likely be in better shape but still carrying that 20 lbs.
05-03-17, 11:55 AM
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Welcome back!! Don't get too intimidated by the Helicomatic. Malliard just found a novel way to mount their freewheel on the hub that actually gave the axle a bit more support.
So this is your only bike? If you had another bike with similar gearing, size range of rear cogs, the easiest thing would be just swap in another wheel.
Since you can't do that I recommend a trip to your local bike shop for a new wheel. The down side is you need a new freewheel since you current Helicomatic can't be mounted on a different hub. If it will easily mount into your frame you might want to consider a Shimano cassette hub with a 7 speed cassette. That might give you more gearing options and smoother shifting with the shimano hyperglide teeth on the cassette.
I hope this helps. OH if you want original gear there are plenty of Helicomatic hubs or used wheels and freewheels around, but I suspect from the tone of your post your more interested in getting the bike serviceable than keeping it original.
So this is your only bike? If you had another bike with similar gearing, size range of rear cogs, the easiest thing would be just swap in another wheel.
Since you can't do that I recommend a trip to your local bike shop for a new wheel. The down side is you need a new freewheel since you current Helicomatic can't be mounted on a different hub. If it will easily mount into your frame you might want to consider a Shimano cassette hub with a 7 speed cassette. That might give you more gearing options and smoother shifting with the shimano hyperglide teeth on the cassette.
I hope this helps. OH if you want original gear there are plenty of Helicomatic hubs or used wheels and freewheels around, but I suspect from the tone of your post your more interested in getting the bike serviceable than keeping it original.
This bike has friction shifting, so I think that means I have more options, so I'll add the Shimano to my watch list.
Short term, yes, operational is key. Long term, it would be nice to be original, but I'm not going to cry if I can't do that. And yes, your post was helpful. Thanks.
05-03-17, 12:10 PM
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I would not trust that hub any longer, good catch on seeing the crack. Options are replace the wheel with whatever you decide is both compatible with the rest of the bike (knowing this likely means a new cog set and chain too) or finding a Helicomatic hub/wheel to steel from for parts. I'm no expert in these hubs, when they were current many mechanics didn't really like their uncommon axles, cones, balls, cog sets and with no real bennies we saw them as an answer to the marketing dept's need to be different. not to have a better working bike. (There's a reason that they left the market...) But if you decide on option 2 you do have hope as there's a lot of these wheels lurking in basements and garages as they were frequently replaced with wheels that can be serviced easily and in any LBS. Finding these people will be the challenge.
Again the quick option (and the one with the best long term lifespan) is to simple replace the wheel with a current one. Andy (who understands that cost is about the future servicing and one's time/efforts in the present as well as about the price of a part).
Again the quick option (and the one with the best long term lifespan) is to simple replace the wheel with a current one. Andy (who understands that cost is about the future servicing and one's time/efforts in the present as well as about the price of a part).
The idea was great (and perfected on by Shimano's freehub), but Maillard's manufacturing wasn't caught up to the ideas.
Don't bother with a new Helicomatic- a new wheel would be better.
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05-03-17, 12:24 PM
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Ahhhh, the distinguished Maillard Helicomatic hub. The horror. The horror. Whenever I see one of those things it makes me want to cringe. Run, run away, don't walk. Get another set of wheels. There are plenty of affordable 700 wheel sets that will work. Niagra, Amazon, or somebody usually has a pair on sale for less than $150 or so. My favorite inexpensive go to wheels are the Weinmann LP18 36h rims w/Origin 8 hubs. Great value. Have fun.
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05-03-17, 12:30 PM
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I'd vote "new wheel" too, though I don't hate the Helicomatic as much as try to understand it. I have two currently in service and they work just as well as any hub I have. The main beef on them is the tiny, tiny bearings that will not abide one iota of neglect. (But keep them clean and lubed and they're fine). I've never seen a structural crack in a hub, that's pretty interesting.
If you decide to rebuild the wheel with original Helicomatic goodness, I've got a couple of spares in a drawer. The only good reason to do so is to keep things original. Be happy to ship you one for the cost of postage, same way they came to me.
If you decide to rebuild the wheel with original Helicomatic goodness, I've got a couple of spares in a drawer. The only good reason to do so is to keep things original. Be happy to ship you one for the cost of postage, same way they came to me.
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● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●
Last edited by Lascauxcaveman; 05-03-17 at 12:35 PM.
05-03-17, 12:50 PM
#12
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I'd vote "new wheel" too, though I don't hate the Helicomatic as much as try to understand it. I have two currently in service and they work just as well as any hub I have. The main beef on them is the tiny, tiny bearings that will not abide one iota of neglect. (But keep them clean and lubed and they're fine). I've never seen a structural crack in a hub, that's pretty interesting.
If you decide to rebuild the wheel with original Helicomatic goodness, I've got a couple of spares in a drawer. The only good reason to do so is to keep things original. Be happy to ship you one for the cost of postage, same way they came to me.
If you decide to rebuild the wheel with original Helicomatic goodness, I've got a couple of spares in a drawer. The only good reason to do so is to keep things original. Be happy to ship you one for the cost of postage, same way they came to me.
Also, I never had any issues with the Helicomatic either. Nor did I even know what that meant until recently! I just took it to the LBS for a tune-up once a year, cleaned and lubed the chain a couple of times between that, and it always rode great.
05-03-17, 12:50 PM
#13
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You need a new wheel. Unless you are way into obscure French tech, trying to acquire another helicomatic wheel is just going to be a headache. Cool from a historical point of view, but not terribly practical or cost effective.
Those wheels should suit you fine. The cheap 'generic' quantum/origin8 hubs are better than many supposedly good hubs of yesteryear. Yeah, where it says 100-126 it means the rear wheel is 126. 14mm is the internal width of the rim. Not sure why they bother with that.
There is also slightly fancier set wheel master wheelset with Sun M13 rims. Not sure if Niagara has it in silver but it exists. Sun M13ii look just like old Rigida rims but are stronger.
Those wheels should suit you fine. The cheap 'generic' quantum/origin8 hubs are better than many supposedly good hubs of yesteryear. Yeah, where it says 100-126 it means the rear wheel is 126. 14mm is the internal width of the rim. Not sure why they bother with that.
There is also slightly fancier set wheel master wheelset with Sun M13 rims. Not sure if Niagara has it in silver but it exists. Sun M13ii look just like old Rigida rims but are stronger.
05-03-17, 12:52 PM
#14
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That looks right to me. These wheels have a real nice narrow profile. 25mm tires fit perfect. You have to use very skinny 10mm rim tape & a tube with a presta valve. Just a reminder, these wheels are different from your Helicomatic wheels in two distinct ways. The bearings on the new wheels are pressed in. (Not cup & cone). So, unless you get some fancy tools you're never getting those things out. But, sealed bearings generally last quite a long time with very little maintenance. The other thing is it's a threaded freewheel hub. Which means you'll have to get a new freewheel too. The Maillard Helicomatic is a cog set (cassette) + separate freehub combination (with weird spiral threads) and, it's not going to work on the new wheel.
05-03-17, 01:04 PM
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Most Helicomatic owners never really got full benefit from those hubs as it wasn't like everyone had easy access to additional/spare Helicomatic cogsets. Especially because those hubs were specified by manufacturers on mid to low level models from their lines, so a lot of owners never really had the budget to buy the extra cogsets and most were new cyclists that were not yet open to explore things like different gear ratios (this included me in the early 80's with my Peugeot PH10s.]
But it was still kinda neat to be able to take of the rear cogs so easily for cleaning and servicing (I must have had the cleanest, slickest working Helicomatic FW in the 50 states back then!) , plus the ease of replacing a broken drive side spoke would be great on the road.
But it was still kinda neat to be able to take of the rear cogs so easily for cleaning and servicing (I must have had the cleanest, slickest working Helicomatic FW in the 50 states back then!) , plus the ease of replacing a broken drive side spoke would be great on the road.
05-03-17, 01:15 PM
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I'd vote a new wheel (or rebuild yours) as well.
I'm actually rebuilding a helichomatic wheel this afternoon because the person who owns the bike doesn't want to deal with finding cassettes/freewheels for it. (And theirs is worn to the point where it skips under load.)
We're just going to disassemble the wheel, replace the hub (hopefully other hubs of the time have the same flange diameter...) and rebuild the wheel.
I'm actually rebuilding a helichomatic wheel this afternoon because the person who owns the bike doesn't want to deal with finding cassettes/freewheels for it. (And theirs is worn to the point where it skips under load.)
We're just going to disassemble the wheel, replace the hub (hopefully other hubs of the time have the same flange diameter...) and rebuild the wheel.
05-03-17, 01:20 PM
#17
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Are you sure that's a crack? It looks like the edge of a piece of tape.
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05-03-17, 01:37 PM
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I'm going to offer a Helicomatic wheel or hub to TooLong2 for the price of shipping. I have a spare hanging on a hook in the garage now.
05-03-17, 02:04 PM
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05-03-17, 05:03 PM
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05-03-17, 05:06 PM
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05-03-17, 05:32 PM
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You need a new wheel. Unless you are way into obscure French tech, trying to acquire another helicomatic wheel is just going to be a headache. Cool from a historical point of view, but not terribly practical or cost effective.
Those wheels should suit you fine. The cheap 'generic' quantum/origin8 hubs are better than many supposedly good hubs of yesteryear. Yeah, where it says 100-126 it means the rear wheel is 126. 14mm is the internal width of the rim. Not sure why they bother with that.
There is also slightly fancier set wheel master wheelset with Sun M13 rims. Not sure if Niagara has it in silver but it exists. Sun M13ii look just like old Rigida rims but are stronger.
Those wheels should suit you fine. The cheap 'generic' quantum/origin8 hubs are better than many supposedly good hubs of yesteryear. Yeah, where it says 100-126 it means the rear wheel is 126. 14mm is the internal width of the rim. Not sure why they bother with that.
There is also slightly fancier set wheel master wheelset with Sun M13 rims. Not sure if Niagara has it in silver but it exists. Sun M13ii look just like old Rigida rims but are stronger.
https://www.niagaracycle.com/categor...-silver-silver
I have no clue what the extra $40 buys me with this set over the Weinmann set above.
But funny you mentioned Rigida. I didn't think I had any "stickers" on my rear wheel, but sure enough I do. I'm not even sure how I missed it before. Is it strange that the front wheel is a Mavic and the rear is a Rigida?
I took the rear wheel off to take some pics. It's 3.6 lbs including the skewer. As others have suggested, it looks like it would takes some sort of special tool to take the cogset off.
05-03-17, 06:17 PM
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One of those rims or even wheel, is a replacement......
Limited budget might have forced the PO to love with the mismatch......
I'm voting for the Rigida if you are planning to get a rim to make the front and rear match up. That Rigida rim was actually quite good I think I got the same when I upgraded my Peugeot PSV to lighter 32 spoke wheels in the mid 80's. They were a perfect match to the narrow Specialized Turbo S and V tires I was running back then. Much preferred them to the then more common Mavic Module E.
Limited budget might have forced the PO to love with the mismatch......
I'm voting for the Rigida if you are planning to get a rim to make the front and rear match up. That Rigida rim was actually quite good I think I got the same when I upgraded my Peugeot PSV to lighter 32 spoke wheels in the mid 80's. They were a perfect match to the narrow Specialized Turbo S and V tires I was running back then. Much preferred them to the then more common Mavic Module E.
05-03-17, 06:45 PM
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That looks right to me. These wheels have a real nice narrow profile. 25mm tires fit perfect. You have to use very skinny 10mm rim tape & a tube with a presta valve. Just a reminder, these wheels are different from your Helicomatic wheels in two distinct ways. The bearings on the new wheels are pressed in. (Not cup & cone). So, unless you get some fancy tools you're never getting those things out. But, sealed bearings generally last quite a long time with very little maintenance. The other thing is it's a threaded freewheel hub. Which means you'll have to get a new freewheel too. The Maillard Helicomatic is a cog set (cassette) + separate freehub combination (with weird spiral threads) and, it's not going to work on the new wheel.
The description for the wheelset on the Niagara site says it supports 5, 6, or 7 speeds, but I don't know if that alters the width/frame spacing requirements or the rear derailer. Does it matter that my gears are 14 through 24 teeth?
I found some Shimano 6 speed freewheels since Bianchigirll recommended those, but I can't tell if they are compatible with the OR8 RD-2100 hub. I also can't tell if they're compatible with my current (presumably original) Stronglight crankset.
05-03-17, 07:02 PM
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One of those rims or even wheel, is a replacement......
Limited budget might have forced the PO to love with the mismatch......
I'm voting for the Rigida if you are planning to get a rim to make the front and rear match up. That Rigida rim was actually quite good I think I got the same when I upgraded my Peugeot PSV to lighter 32 spoke wheels in the mid 80's. They were a perfect match to the narrow Specialized Turbo S and V tires I was running back then. Much preferred them to the then more common Mavic Module E.
Limited budget might have forced the PO to love with the mismatch......
I'm voting for the Rigida if you are planning to get a rim to make the front and rear match up. That Rigida rim was actually quite good I think I got the same when I upgraded my Peugeot PSV to lighter 32 spoke wheels in the mid 80's. They were a perfect match to the narrow Specialized Turbo S and V tires I was running back then. Much preferred them to the then more common Mavic Module E.