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Help with Campagnolo 8 speed shifting issue

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Help with Campagnolo 8 speed shifting issue

Old 06-04-17, 09:12 AM
  #1  
jamesdak
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Help with Campagnolo 8 speed shifting issue

So, I've been having an ongoing minor issue with the 8 Speed setup on my Maillot Jaune that I can't seem to adjust out. Not sure if it's a maintenance issue or just nature of the beast.

It works just fine under normal load shifting. But in the middle range of the cassette if I stand and hammer it will drop down a gear or two on me. Sometimes it will do it while sitting too if I mash to accelerate vs drop a gear and spin. Like I said though, it seems to be shifting between gears just fine.

Should I be looking closer at the DT shifter for a problem, the RD, or what?? I love how this rides and want to attack some of my sprints with it but have to baby it up to speed. Any help would be appreciated. I'm good at basic stuff but this one has me stumped.

Some shots to help ID the groupset. I think it's 1st gen Chorus 8 Speed????





Chain appears fine. What holds tension? Could the shifter be worn? Thanks!
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Old 06-04-17, 09:31 AM
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The two images suggest that the cable is too slack. If that is the case then are you in index mode?
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Old 06-04-17, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
The two images suggest that the cable is too slack. If that is the case then are you in index mode?
Hmmm, just checked it. The pic was from the first day I picked it up. Cable tension was fixed then but maybe I don't have it tight enough still?

I am indexing with them and that's actually working fine. It justs drops down under load.

Last edited by jamesdak; 06-04-17 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 06-04-17, 12:06 PM
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If the index is working but won't hold a gear, then the detent mech is not secure enough, small chance an internal spacer is missing, old grease filling toothed ratchet gear, worn gear, worn pawl.

Worth checking the dérailleur tab alignment, a funny note, the Of the period Shimano SIS alignment tool was much more precise than the Campagnolo tool, even more curious, the Shimano tool noted you use a C hub! C being code for Campagnolo.

I often wind in the rear mech cable adjuster on these, tighten the cable, then back out the adjuster to get the mechanism to be happy in the second smallest cog. That seems to set the indexing well. Making sure you catch all gears in the stand.
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Old 06-04-17, 12:56 PM
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Your bike is telling you to back off a little .

I would make sure all the slack is out of the cable and then make sure the d-ring bolt on the shifter is very tight. The bolt shouldn't make that much difference with index shifting but you never know and it's a simple fix.
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Old 06-04-17, 01:17 PM
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I have the same derailleur but with the hood shifting. I have not recently in all my bikes been able to hammer down and shift at the same time. It is super hard on equipment. I have tore out freewheels, stripped gears, etc. When shifting I usually back off for a second then continue hammering. On a side note, if it is drifting, check the tightness of your derailleur bolt and hanger. Also make sure your freewheel is on tight.

I wish I had a spare of that derailleur, mine is cracked on the OD of the hanger mount.
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Old 06-04-17, 02:47 PM
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Well I took this out for a little 25 miler today. Think I'm mistaken about what it's doing. Had one "incident" today taking off from a Stop Sign and for sure it was the freehub slipping not jumping gears. Guess I need to look at that.

Oh and I never shift this under load.
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Old 06-04-17, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
If the index is working but won't hold a gear, then the detent mech is not secure enough, small chance an internal spacer is missing, old grease filling toothed ratchet gear, worn gear, worn pawl.

Worth checking the dérailleur tab alignment, a funny note, the Of the period Shimano SIS alignment tool was much more precise than the Campagnolo tool, even more curious, the Shimano tool noted you use a C hub! C being code for Campagnolo.
Any ideas on telling gruppos from the C-Record era (late 80s to early 90s) apart? I'm not a campy expert and I'm stumped, no obvious labeling like stuff from the 2000s, its also 8 speed stuff. I am working to rehab a bike for a friend. Is there a secret code someplace that I am not seeing?

Synchro II right shifter -I think
[IMG]IMG_0896 by Ryan Surface, on Flickr[/IMG]

RD
[IMG]IMG_0873 by Ryan Surface, on Flickr[/IMG]

Crank
[IMG]IMG_0870 by Ryan Surface, on Flickr[/IMG]

Stumped in Seattle
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Old 06-04-17, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
Well I took this out for a little 25 miler today. Think I'm mistaken about what it's doing. Had one "incident" today taking off from a Stop Sign and for sure it was the freehub slipping not jumping gears. Guess I need to look at that.

Oh and I never shift this under load.
Yeah when you said the dropped down a cog, my thoughts were it had to be in the cable or shifter but I agree with that you should look at the cassette and freehub. Would that be a sign of a worn freehub pawl? Simple things first, cinch down the lock ring.

I have the same issue on my 7 speed Campy on my Basso. Mine is a freewheel and I haven't gotten around to asking for advice yet.
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Old 06-04-17, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
Well I took this out for a little 25 miler today. Think I'm mistaken about what it's doing. Had one "incident" today taking off from a Stop Sign and for sure it was the freehub slipping not jumping gears. Guess I need to look at that.

Oh and I never shift this under load.
Ok, you will need to remove the cassette and oil the freehub at a minimum. As I recall there is an oil port under the cassette splines.
The freewheel assembly can be removed and flushed out, evaluated. My guess it is still gunk getting the the way of the pawl movement and or engagement.

Bike shop trip for the removal or purchase tool and a chain whip time.
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Old 06-04-17, 05:10 PM
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I think it is the same as mine. 92-93 year range. Look it up here:

Campagnolo Catalog site - Campybike
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Old 06-04-17, 05:16 PM
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Ryansu- I think that is an earlier syncro lever, compare to the other in this thread. The cranks are Chorus or below, the rear mech... Here is the problem, Campagnolo as the 80's went on shifting tooling down the product line as new stuff was brought out for many of the subordinate groups. The easy tell is the crank set, Record aligned the crank arm as the 5th position of the chainring bolts, until they started marking the tier. Where they exposed all to the world again and changed the form completely.

I like the "Chorus" crank. The rear mech is a challenge, really discrete changes to logo application, cage plate details tell them apart, knuckle shaping... I have not bothered referencing them all.
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Old 06-04-17, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Ok, you will need to remove the cassette and oil the freehub at a minimum. As I recall there is an oil port under the cassette splines.
The freewheel assembly can be removed and flushed out, evaluated. My guess it is still gunk getting the the way of the pawl movement and or engagement.

Bike shop trip for the removal or purchase tool and a chain whip time.
While you have the cassette body off, I'd replace the pawl springs - they eventually compress and occasionally fail - FH-RE014. They are still available as a spare part.
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Old 06-04-17, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Spaghetti Legs View Post
Yeah when you said the dropped down a cog, my thoughts were it had to be in the cable or shifter but I agree with that you should look at the cassette and freehub. Would that be a sign of a worn freehub pawl? Simple things first, cinch down the lock ring.

I have the same issue on my 7 speed Campy on my Basso. Mine is a freewheel and I haven't gotten around to asking for advice yet.
Yeah, I should have realized it earlier as my Basso was doing the same thing last year. This one just acts up when I hard at it and concentrating on my effort vs what the bike is really doing.
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Old 06-04-17, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Ok, you will need to remove the cassette and oil the freehub at a minimum. As I recall there is an oil port under the cassette splines.
The freewheel assembly can be removed and flushed out, evaluated. My guess it is still gunk getting the the way of the pawl movement and or engagement.

Bike shop trip for the removal or purchase tool and a chain whip time.
Well, I've already got an appt setup for some work to be done to the PDG Paramount. I think I'll just drop the wheel off with the guys too and let them go over the freehub good. My LBS guys love working on my older stuff and it gives me more time to ride.

I just wish you could still find the spacer kits to use the Campaganolo 8 speed cassette on modern wheels. I think a nice set of Zonda's or Fulcrum 3's would really wake this one up over the Matrix rimmed wheels on it right now.
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Old 07-30-17, 11:40 AM
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So, finally getting back to this issue. I actually wound up putting a set of Fulcrum 3's on this. Adapted a 9 speed cassette with custom 8 speed spacers. This eliminates a freehub or cassette issue. But the problem persists. I have the RD shifter as tight as I can get it. It seems to pretty much only happen in the 3rd and 4th largest gear and it is jumping gears. Sorry for the earlier confusion. I can't seem to dial out the problems with simple adjustments. I was able to sprint today in lower gears with no issue but I did hold back a bit. I'm suspecting something worn in the DT shifter. I've never taken one apart and haven't been able to google and find instructions for mine.

Tempted to put Ergo Shifters on it anyway so maybe now is the time. I'm not a Campagnolo expert but would 9 speed shifters work with this RD if I put a 9 speed cassette on? Just wondering in case I can't sort out the original problem.
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Old 07-30-17, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ryansu View Post
Any ideas on telling gruppos from the C-Record era (late 80s to early 90s) apart? I'm not a campy expert and I'm stumped, no obvious labeling like stuff from the 2000s, its also 8 speed stuff. I am working to rehab a bike for a friend. Is there a secret code someplace that I am not seeing?
The crank is either a Croce d'Aune or a later Chorus (after CdA was dropped), due to the self-extractor. The RD looks like it might be Chorus.
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Old 07-30-17, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Choke View Post
The crank is either a Croce d'Aune or a later Chorus (after CdA was dropped), due to the self-extractor. The RD looks like it might be Chorus.
Thanks!
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Old 07-30-17, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
So, finally getting back to this issue. I actually wound up putting a set of Fulcrum 3's on this. Adapted a 9 speed cassette with custom 8 speed spacers. This eliminates a freehub or cassette issue. But the problem persists. I have the RD shifter as tight as I can get it. It seems to pretty much only happen in the 3rd and 4th largest gear and it is jumping gears. Sorry for the earlier confusion. I can't seem to dial out the problems with simple adjustments. I was able to sprint today in lower gears with no issue but I did hold back a bit. I'm suspecting something worn in the DT shifter. I've never taken one apart and haven't been able to google and find instructions for mine.

Tempted to put Ergo Shifters on it anyway so maybe now is the time. I'm not a Campagnolo expert but would 9 speed shifters work with this RD if I put a 9 speed cassette on? Just wondering in case I can't sort out the original problem.
9s won't work on this RD plus you'd have to be careful about the version of the insert inside the 9s lever in any case as the exact pull ratios changed in 2001 ... there isn't an obvious marking (that I know of, anyway) on the insert inside the shifter to tell you which version you have. You can see from the tooth intervals when you have them side by side but you do have to look carefully.

Campag use essentially the same mechanism in the Synchro lever as you'll find in an ErgoPower - the only thing that differs, basically, is the mechanism to drive the shift mechanism clockwise / anti-clockwise. The ratcheting system is very, very similar. It's an ungated ratchet that can be pulled backwards and I'd suggest that frame flex is pulling yours backwards.

It may be worth taking the shifter apart and replacing both of the index springs - they are the same as those used in all the the ErgoPower levers - you will have early ones, that part number will be SL-RE009 ... but the current EC-RE209s will fit in the same place and do the same job.
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Old 08-03-17, 01:39 PM
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Campy 8 cracks

I wish I had a spare of that derailleur, mine is cracked on the OD of the hanger mount.[/QUOTE]


I have a Record 8 speed set-up on my '92 Paramount and my 1st rear derailleur was cracked in the mounting bolt area at top, when I looked for a replacement I found several of these offered with the same crack. I think it is a factory defect from casting.
When I installed the front der., from the same group, it too cracked at the hinge.
What is worrying is, also in the same group was the high flange sherif star hubs, not cracked , but they have a reputation of cracking, not sure if this is actually true.
Now I am nervous that Campagnolo had problems with their castings in the early 90's. A broken der. is one thing but hub failure is not acceptable.

Any input about the Sheriff star hubs ? I can only find one or two pic's of a hub that actually failed and the reason is not agreed upon.

David
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Old 08-04-17, 04:27 PM
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The Sherrif Star hubs were a bad design, with the drilled outer ring left to sustain poorly-supported loading through the spoke's load path. The wide cutouts in the flange would seem to be the culprit here, not the metal.


The cracked upper knuckles was indeed common, which I attributed to the stresses of the bushing being pressed into the thinned (from the better model's finer finishing) upper knuckle. I actually replaced one of those knuckes once, and it was a pain having to concoct my own tooling/fixturing for the job of removing some of the pivot pins.


I'm willing to bet that gfk velo is right on about the index springs inside of your shift lever being fatigued i.e. worn out.
That was my first guess, and he just gave you the part number!
Also slightly possible is that thickened grease is affecting the spring's holding power, and I am in the habit of routinely spraying some grease or at least lubricating oil into the greased ratcheting crevices of this style of shifter, to improve their snappiness.

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Old 08-05-17, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
So, finally getting back to this issue. I actually wound up putting a set of Fulcrum 3's on this. Adapted a 9 speed cassette with custom 8 speed spacers. This eliminates a freehub or cassette issue. But the problem persists. I have the RD shifter as tight as I can get it. It seems to pretty much only happen in the 3rd and 4th largest gear and it is jumping gears. Sorry for the earlier confusion. I can't seem to dial out the problems with simple adjustments. I was able to sprint today in lower gears with no issue but I did hold back a bit. I'm suspecting something worn in the DT shifter. I've never taken one apart and haven't been able to google and find instructions for mine.

Tempted to put Ergo Shifters on it anyway so maybe now is the time. I'm not a Campagnolo expert but would 9 speed shifters work with this RD if I put a 9 speed cassette on? Just wondering in case I can't sort out the original problem.
My wife's 1997 Georgena Terry came with full Campy Mirage (!!!) 3 x 8 with Ergopower shifters, and it works perfectly even as Mirage! If you get a set of 8-speed Ergopowers they should be excellent.

But it sounds like you are on the track of replacing parts until it works. Without knowing the cause or whether the problem is an adjustment, it could get really expensive. With the Terry experience, I strongly believe the Campy of this era (the 1997 set-up at least) can work very well and inherently is not greatly flawed.

I've done a lot of good on older stuff by cleaning, aligning, and adjusting. Getting your freehub serviced was a good idea. Going to Fulcrum seems like not a bad idea, but you do have new compatibilty questions to noodle about.

I'd first work with your existing downtube levers in friction mode to see what it takes to make it work right at that level, and at the same time do the research to find out what internal parts your Synchro levers need to index your system. If that can be made to work, you're golden. If not, and you have overhauled and re-assembled your DT levers correctly, well, there are a lot of other things that can be in your way.
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Old 08-05-17, 08:01 AM
  #23  
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I still need to try taking the shifter apart and cleaning it. I wanted to run it in friction mode to see how it acts but honestly I don't see a way to "switch" these over. Did they make indexing only DT shifters?

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Old 08-05-17, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak View Post
I still need to try taking the shifter apart and cleaning it. I wanted to run it in friction mode to see how it acts but honestly I don't see a way to "switch" these over. Did they make indexing only DT shifters?
Yes, and that's what you have. The cable adjuster mounted on the lever is the giveaway.

One of these should be applicable to your shifters:
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File Type: jpg
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Old 09-04-17, 08:34 PM
  #25  
jamesdak
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OK, one problem with having so many bikes and riding daily is that problems like this are easy to ignore. That and I'm nervous about taking the shifter apart. But today I took this one out again and despite a lot of ghost shifting I set a PR on my 25 mile route. It could have been even faster if I could really get on this bike. So now I really want to solve this.

I'm pretty sold it's the shifter. What I noticed today is that each time it started jumping between gears I could down shift and then shift back up and the problem would stop. So it does sound like the shifter is not holding the position, right?

So going to take it apart and get in some springs. I'll check my LBS tomorrow to see if by chance they have them in stock if not I'll just order some in. I guess my other question is do I lube everything liberally as I put it back together or are then any parts internally that shouldn't be lubed?

This is how the bike looks now I've got it otherwise all sorted out for fast riding. The Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels feel great on this one and carry speed well.

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