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1984 Peugeot 12 Vitesse - New Zealand

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1984 Peugeot 12 Vitesse - New Zealand

Old 06-17-17, 11:22 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Chombi1
Peugeot Carbolite forks from that era actually had a very narrow groove running along the backs of the fork legs. That's where the fork leg tubes were seam welded. The grooves and welds are very clean, most likely because it was not done by hand, but my machine.
The forks on my bike are just like that. The thing I'm not clear about is whether or not the high tensile steel (Carbolite) forks were originally meant to be chrome plated. Going by the catalogues I've seen, the Carbolite models all seem to have painted forks. Is that a fair assumption or were their exceptions?
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Old 06-18-17, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Chombi1
1) Powder coating usually ends up going on much thicker than regular paint, so some of the lug and pantograph details on frames lose their edge definition.
Thereís something new to learn with every reply on this forum. I wasnít aware of the term pantograph in relation to bike frames. I would also not want the serial number and other numbers stamped into the frame to be diminished or disappear.

Originally Posted by Chombi1
2) If the powdercoater and owner of the bike do not collaborate carefully before the powder coating is done, to mask of certain areas on the frame with holes and threads that components mount to, powder coating will get into them and will make assembly of the threaded parts and holes where items go through or get pressed on to (bottom bracket, downtube shifters, waterbottle mounts, seatpost clamp bolt, headset, brake calipers and rear and front (if it has a French style mount with a threaded boss on the seat tube) derailleurs) very hard to do, as powder coating does not come off easily.
This is really helpful advice thanks! I definitely want to discuss these issues with the powdercoater and if they arenít willing or able to offer solutions Iíll try someone else.

Originally Posted by Chombi1
In this case, I think powder coating is a good alternative to paint as this Peugeot have very simple lug profiles (Most likely, medium point, Bocama, windowless) and most likely does not have any pantographing, so there is not that much detail on the frame to worry about getting covered by to much powdercoating.
I think you are right about this. It does seem to be a plain frame design.

Originally Posted by Chombi1
Only thing that might get affected on the bike will be it's market value to C&V collectors who just do not like powder coating on any C&V bikes.
I donít have the impression that the bike is going to be very valuable either way. However, just looking at the frame again today, it really doesnít look that bad as it is. Close-up photos tend to make the rust look a lot worse. That said though the idea of a brand new finish appeals to me if I can get a reasonable colour match and all those other boxes ticked.
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Old 06-18-17, 04:56 AM
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At the risk of starting a great avalanche of helpful advice, I'm posting photos of components thus far removed from the bike. I'm trying to gain a better understanding of costs involved getting my bike up and running. I'd be interested in knowing if components are serviceable or in need of replacement.

I'll start with the brake callipers which seem to be in quite good shape apart from a few bits of rusted chrome.
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Old 06-18-17, 05:00 AM
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The Simplex front derailleur is not in such good shape. The most obvious problem is the plastic clamp has broken. Does this signify the need for a whole new component or can the clamp alone be replaced? No doubt the chrome could be rust treated and/or given the brass wool treatment.
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Old 06-18-17, 05:06 AM
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The gear cassette looks ugly. Is this really as bad as it looks?
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Old 06-18-17, 05:09 AM
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Here is the front wheel hub and rim section with nice bright red sticker...
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Old 06-18-17, 05:12 AM
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The rear derailleur is in need of a good clean and grease but otherwise ok I think.
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Old 06-18-17, 05:39 AM
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The front Simplex is dead. Once the plastic breaks, they are non-serviceable. Look for a Simplex SJ A102 in metal. They are robust and period correct for your Peugeot.
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Old 06-18-17, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer
The gear cassette looks ugly. Is this really as bad as it looks?
For what it's worth, it's a freewheel, not a cassette. I point that out to aid you if you need to find a replacement, so you're not searching for the wrong thing. It's hard to tell how bad your freewheel is until it's cleaned up. I'd be hesitant to dunk that into oxalic acid or some other rust remover, for fear of getting stuff into the pawls that wouldn't come out. Clean it up with a stiff, long-bristle brush and WD-40 (should remove old grease and superficial rust) and see what things look like then. I'd start with a stiff plastic brush, then if necessary use a brass brush if you need to be more aggressive.

For the rusty chrome, the most popular methods seem to be oxalic acid soak (I use Barkeeper's Friend), then buff with a chrome polish and wax (the rust will want to come back, and wax helps prevent it) or rubbing with damp aluminum foil, and polish and wax. Sometimes just a good chrome polish is enough.

On the powdercoat/paint debate, you might want to get ride of the rust, clean it up, get it lubed and working and ride it for a bit. If you love the bike, and hate the way it looks, then decide. You might realize you don't mind the looks. I've come to appreciate the faded and chipped paint on my Tommasini. It's too nice a bike to powder coat, and a paint job of the quality that would match the original paint and decals would easily be $500+, which I'm not willing to spend. Some folks here have had very good luck with powdercoating bikes that aren't too valuable, especially if the person doing the powdercoating understands the need to not lay it on too thick, and is good at masking everything off. It seems like I've read there's a problem with powdercoating over chrome, so check into that if you do decide to go that route.
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Old 06-18-17, 04:16 PM
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I do still have the Helicomatic tool. It is always in my seat tool bag, "Just in case...."
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Old 06-18-17, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer
The Simplex front derailleur is not in such good shape. The most obvious problem is the plastic clamp has broken. Does this signify the need for a whole new component or can the clamp alone be replaced? No doubt the chrome could be rust treated and/or given the brass wool treatment.
That is a classic "feature" of the Derlin plastic body Simplex front derailleur - they crack. Yes You will need a new front derailleur. I would suggest measuring the downtube diameter where the FD will go, on older Peugeots they had french sizing so you would have to shim the later Japanese made FD's to fit, I speak from experience lol.
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Old 06-18-17, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevindale
For what it's worth, it's a freewheel, not a cassette. I point that out to aid you if you need to find a replacement, so you're not searching for the wrong thing.
Thanks for pointing that out. I was really trying to refer to the gear/sprocket cluster which I'd thought was the cassette. I see there's plenty of information online about the difference between freewheel and cassette.

https://www.btwin.com/blog/blog-and-...d-a-freewheel/

Originally Posted by Kevindale
It's hard to tell how bad your freewheel is until it's cleaned up. I'd be hesitant to dunk that into oxalic acid or some other rust remover, for fear of getting stuff into the pawls that wouldn't come out. Clean it up with a stiff, long-bristle brush and WD-40 (should remove old grease and superficial rust) and see what things look like then. I'd start with a stiff plastic brush, then if necessary use a brass brush if you need to be more aggressive.
OK I can definitely give the WD-40 and brush a try to begin with thanks.

Originally Posted by Kevindale
For the rusty chrome, the most popular methods seem to be oxalic acid soak (I use Barkeeper's Friend), then buff with a chrome polish and wax (the rust will want to come back, and wax helps prevent it) or rubbing with damp aluminum foil, and polish and wax. Sometimes just a good chrome polish is enough.
I've been using Autosol metal polish but not heard of Barkeeper's Friend. It is readily available here and affordable, thanks. One of my Facebook contacts mentioned the wax too. Is that the type used for polishing cars or more of a raw beeswax for furniture? I recently made a pot of furniture polish using beeswax and olive oil so perhaps there is a new use for it.

Originally Posted by Kevindale
On the powdercoat/paint debate, you might want to get ride of the rust, clean it up, get it lubed and working and ride it for a bit. If you love the bike, and hate the way it looks, then decide. You might realize you don't mind the looks.
That's good advice thanks. Actually I have been considering this option as after all the bike is more useful when it is rideable as opposed to looking pretty with the running gear broken. It's not too arduous dismantling a bike once you know what's involved but on the other hand it is tempting to have it painted when already stripped down.

Incidentally I have found a company that can powder coat the forks with the appearance of chrome for about $65 if I decide to go down that path.
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Old 06-18-17, 06:17 PM
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I have a crank pulling tool and socket that will work if you get stuck, I also have a spare rear wheel with Helicomatic hub if you need parts.
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Old 06-18-17, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ryansu
That is a classic "feature" of the Derlin plastic body Simplex front derailleur - they crack.
Perhaps an early form of built-in obsolesce?

Originally Posted by ryansu
Yes You will need a new front derailleur. I would suggest measuring the downtube diameter where the FD will go, on older Peugeots they had french sizing so you would have to shim the later Japanese made FD's to fit, I speak from experience lol.
I can see how easy it must be to make the wrong purchase!

Interestingly I've measured the seat-tube diameter where the derailleur clamp was positioned. I'm sure if I've measured this correctly (more than once) but it seems too large at about 95mm. Advice on the 'mytenspeeds' website is that English seat tubes have 'an outside diameter of 28.6mm while the French one measures out at 28mm.' I've also checked the head tube which is more like 104mm. Does that make any sense?
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Old 06-18-17, 07:07 PM
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Measure it in inch mode. Divide the inch measurement by .03937 to get the metric equivalent. Be it known that there are 25.4 mm to an inch. Each mm is .03937 inches. Your 95mm would equate to a seat post that's 3 3/4 inches in diameter. I think you're misreading something or your math needs checking.
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Old 06-18-17, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon T
Measure it in inch mode. Divide the inch measurement by .03937 to get the metric equivalent. Be it known that there are 25.4 mm to an inch. Each mm is .03937 inches. Your 95mm would equate to a seat post that's 3 3/4 inches in diameter. I think you're misreading something or your math needs checking.
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Now I'm ashamed to say I was measuring circumference. Getting my wires crossed again. Apologies for that!
Fortunately I have a nice, accurate set of callipers that are giving a reading of 28.75mm. So slightly more than the English size of 28.6mm.
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Old 06-18-17, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevindale
For what it's worth, it's a freewheel, not a cassette.
I'd argue it's Helicomatic, so it's more of a cassette than a freewheel....

And on other topics, the front derailleur is made of Delrin plastic, since you already have Shimano 600 calipers, why not just go full 600 on the bike?
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Old 06-18-17, 08:23 PM
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PS on the topic of Helicomatic, you should really visit: The Helicomatic Museum

It'll tell you everything you need to know about that rear hub.

The Rigida rims are actually pretty damn solid, and a LOT of people have negative remarks about Helicomatic, but if you've used them as much as some of us French-loving folks have, you'll see just as much value in them as the early Shimano freehubs.

Although, there are less moving parts in the freehub. I have the tool to break open the helico FW. Rebuild is way easier than a standard FW. Biggest problem is bent axles if you're a heavy rider.
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Old 06-18-17, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile
I'd argue it's Helicomatic, so it's more of a cassette than a freewheel....

And on other topics, the front derailleur is made of Delrin plastic, since you already have Shimano 600 calipers, why not just go full 600 on the bike?
I guess that makes sense. I was just looking at Sheldon Brown's site, and at one point he refers to the 'cluster' that mounted on the Helicomatic hub. From now on I'll just call it a cluster. By the way, Sheldon didn't think much of this system.
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Old 06-18-17, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile
I'd argue it's Helicomatic, so it's more of a cassette than a freewheel....

And on other topics, the front derailleur is made of Delrin plastic, since you already have Shimano 600 calipers, why not just go full 600 on the bike?
I don't have a strong preference but like the idea of keeping things consistent does appeal. The crank set is Shimano Golden Arrow which I understand is a good thing.
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Old 06-18-17, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevindale
I guess that makes sense. I was just looking at Sheldon Brown's site, and at one point he refers to the 'cluster' that mounted on the Helicomatic hub. From now on I'll just call it a cluster. By the way, Sheldon didn't think much of this system.
I appreciate Sheldon's opinion on many things cycling related. He was a font of knowledge, but he also had lots of opinions about thing which are unclear if it's based in reality, or a matter of opinion. We all suffer from that so I'm not judging...

But yeah, It's not really a cassette or freehub because the housing has pawls. It's closer to a freewheel, but not really a freewheel... or is it?

I dunno. But the convenience is nice. The design is probably flawed by the rear axle.
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Old 06-18-17, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile
The Rigida rims are actually pretty damn solid
This reminds me I had meant to post photos of the sticker on the rear wheel rim. It's a different make. There's no sign of any codes stamped on the rim. Just the 'Module E2' on the label.
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Old 06-18-17, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer
This reminds me I had meant to post photos of the sticker on the rear wheel rim. It's a different make. There's no sign of any codes stamped on the rim. Just the 'Module E2' on the label.
It's made by Mavic, model E2. Also a very competent wheel and properties are very similar to the Rigida, although some would argue the Mavic is the better rim.

Seems like you have quite the frankenbike on your hands.

But still, a solid bike. Clean it up and ride the hell out of it. it won't do you wrong. The riding properties of the low/mid model Peugeots of the 80s were highly underrated. You've got a nice bike on your hands, even if it didn't win a TdF or GdI.

PS - VeloBase.com - Component: Mavic Module E2

Also, really weird, the way the tire is sitting over this rim it looks like it's tubular/glued, but ... pretty sure the E2 was clincher? Maybe I'm crazy.

PPS - the rust on those eyelets and corrosion on the brass nipples is a bit disconcerting
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Old 06-18-17, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile
PS on the topic of Helicomatic, you should really visit: The Helicomatic Museum
It'll tell you everything you need to know about that rear hub.
Thanks for this tip. It will help to know what I'm doing when pulling things apart.

Originally Posted by francophile
a LOT of people have negative remarks about Helicomatic, but if you've used them as much as some of us French-loving folks have, you'll see just as much value in them as the early Shimano free hubs.
Well I like the very fact that they are French made and unique. If servicing is not difficult then why not keep them? The sort of riding I'm likely to be doing won't demand much.

Originally Posted by francophile
Although, there are less moving parts in the freehub. I have the tool to break open the helico FW. Rebuild is way easier than a standard FW. Biggest problem is bent axles if you're a heavy rider.
Is that the tool with the bottle opener or another one? The cone ring was quite loose so I was able to easily unscrew it with my fingers. I read somewhere else that broken spokes was one of the big issues with the Helicomatic.
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Old 06-18-17, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer
Is that the tool with the bottle opener or another one? The cone ring was quite loose so I was able to easily unscrew it with my fingers. I read somewhere else that broken spokes was one of the big issues with the Helicomatic.
Yes. You can usually pick one up on eBay any given month for $10-$15. It's worth buying if for nothing else than to have in the shop. We all need to open beverages

A number of low/mid/high level bikes from several manufacturers shipped their bikes stock with Maillard hubs during the Helicomatic years. Trek was a big one, '84/'85 (ish) at least, several models came with Helicomatic rear stock. That one is fresh in my head as I'm getting rid of a 660 this week.
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