Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-17-17, 07:04 AM   #1
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
Thread Starter
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)
Posts: 10,605
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Cyclo 64/Competition Freewheel Issue

I have a customer who has two different Cyclo Competition 5 speed freewheels (14-21 & 14-26) with the same issue: The 14T sprocket slips on the outer body when under pressure. Note, he is not speaking about chain skating on top of the teeth. I clarified this with him. He says that it only occurs on the 14T and none of the other sprockets.

Cyclos are rather rare in the Spa and I've only serviced about 4-5 over the course of the past 6 years. I've never used one on a personal bike. Therefore I have no experience with what he describes. Has anyone else had this issue, and if so did you determine what caused this problem?

Now as a side note, which I've described before, but it is worth posting again and adding pictures. The Cyclo 64 and Competition are unusual freewheels in that the bodies are opposite of all other brands of freewheels. In the Cyclos the pawls and their springs are mounted in the outer body and the ratchet teeth are on the inner body.







The three largest sprockets are threaded on from the rear with reversed threads. The two smallest sprockets are attached somehow and don't appear to be removable. I'm guessing they are threaded on and then brazed or welded in place.

My guess is that on the customer's 14T sprockets, the brazing or welding has broken, the threads have stripped, yet there is still enough material to keep the 14T attached to the body. Thus when he hammers in a sprint or is out of the saddle to finish a climb, the 14T slips on the body.

Is this a solid theory?

One last picture. I worked on these two over the winter. Other than the gold on the outer race/retaining ring, there doesn't appear to be any difference between the two models.

__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-17, 11:36 AM   #2
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,798
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 858 Post(s)
-----

Have you mounted the block on a bike and experienced what he describes yourself?

-----
juvela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-17, 03:11 AM   #3
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
Thread Starter
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)
Posts: 10,605
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

Have you mounted the block on a bike and experienced what he describes yourself?

-----
Unfortunately the owner of the Cyclos still has them in possession. Like many first time customers, lots of email correspondence seems to be needed before I actually have the freewheel in hand.

I'm guessing they might be French threaded and I don't have a French threaded rear wheel. I should be able to duplicate this issue on my work bench with my freewheel vise and chain whip.

My guess that Cyclo freewheels are rare must be spot on. No responses except yours. Thanks for the suggestion!
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-17, 05:39 AM   #4
SJX426 
Senior Member
 
SJX426's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alexandria, Va
Bikes: '72 Motobecane Le Champion(totaled), '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Tre Cim3, '91 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster
Posts: 5,737
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
@pastorbobnlnh - My first thought was that the sprocket is cracked such that it will expand over the treads allowing it to rotate on the body.

I have a cyclo from my 72 Motobecane. Never took it apart.

[IMG]Cyclo-Competition 14-15-17-19-21, on Flickr[/IMG]
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
SJX426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-17, 05:57 AM   #5
LeicaLad 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Work in Asia, now based in Vienna, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,693
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
I'm sure I have one of these in my French parts bin. I will try to find it to see if there's anything I can contribute.

Right now, tho', nothing.

Interesting case, none the less.
__________________
1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
(replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)
1985 ALAN Record (Glued & Screwed. A gift.)
LeicaLad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-17, 03:18 PM   #6
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,798
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 858 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
Unfortunately the owner of the Cyclos still has them in possession. Like many first time customers, lots of email correspondence seems to be needed before I actually have the freewheel in hand.

I'm guessing they might be French threaded and I don't have a French threaded rear wheel. I should be able to duplicate this issue on my work bench with my freewheel vise and chain whip.

My guess that Cyclo freewheels are rare must be spot on. No responses except yours. Thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks for the response.

Your idea regarding the weld failure is an interesting one.

Cyclo blocks did not seem that uncommon on French cycles imported to the U.S. in the later 1960's and early 1970's. Have a few in me boxes.

-----
juvela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 05:57 AM   #7
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
Thread Starter
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)
Posts: 10,605
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
@pastorbobnlnh - My first thought was that the sprocket is cracked such that it will expand over the treads allowing it to rotate on the body.
That's an interesting idea. The owner of the freewheels sent me this picture. What do you think? I can't spot any cracks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LeicaLad View Post
I'm sure I have one of these in my French parts bin. I will try to find it to see if there's anything I can contribute.

Right now, tho', nothing.

Interesting case, none the less.
A mystery to solve. I encouraged the owner to send them to me for inspection and evaluation with no obligation other than postage. Haven't heard back from him yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
Thanks for the response.

Your idea regarding the weld failure is an interesting one.

Cyclo blocks did not seem that uncommon on French cycles imported to the U.S. in the later 1960's and early 1970's. Have a few in me boxes.

-----
Using ebay as a gauge is how I determined they are a bit rare here in the US. I realize this is not scientific nor accurate.

I had a chance to dig around on the internet yesterday and found this catalog page from 1971 which shows an expanded view of the Cyclo freewheels. It does not show the "Competition" but as I mentioned the "64" is built the same way.


Here's the highlighted view of just the "64." Note how it shows the first two smallest sprockets as being fixed and not removable. The 4 speed freewheel clearly shows the smallest sprocket as threading off from the top (above the cut out for the pawls and springs). Both the 4 and the 5 speed models show the back three larger sprockets threading off in reverse from the rear.



I'm guessing now that the 14T is attached to the 2nd sprocket which is threaded to the body. Also, the 14T appears to incorporate the bearing race. So the cause of the issue could be that the threads on the 14T and the 2nd sprocket are stripped. Here's a closeup of the 14T and its race on a 64 I serviced.

__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 07:42 AM   #8
SJX426 
Senior Member
 
SJX426's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alexandria, Va
Bikes: '72 Motobecane Le Champion(totaled), '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Tre Cim3, '91 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster
Posts: 5,737
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 290 Post(s)
The last picture indicates the sprockets are part of the hub! Is there a parting line in the middle of the race? It appears to be there on both sides above the cliquet.

Until you get the parts and see what is moving and what isn't, all we have speculation.

So the added mystery is this "assembly" shown in your last picture. Next week I will I will have time to investigate my freewheel.
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
SJX426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 03:39 PM   #9
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,798
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 858 Post(s)
-----

Thanks very much for posting the catalogue page.

The block I always recall seeing OEM was the model 64.

The Pans is an interesting design. Recall ordering one to be put on a friend's machine. One thing odd about it is that if one has the 13T small cog it is necessary to remove it in order to use the appropriate unique block removal tool.

IIRC it was offered in "kit" fashion, similar to the Regina America.

-----
juvela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 03:42 PM   #10
qcpmsame 
Quality Engineering
 
qcpmsame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Barrineau Park, FL
Bikes: Several, three if you must know.
Posts: 11,787
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 780 Post(s)
Bob, you asked if anyone could spot a crack in the cog a few posts back, none I can make out but what about a crack in just the lower portion of the two that thread into the body. If a crack was present there and it spread under load might the cogs skip then?

Just a thought from reading through all the replies from a couple of the knowledgeable guys here. I have only read about these freewheels, and seen one, out in the wild.

Bill
__________________
USMC 1975-1977 Semper Fi
I Can Do All Things Through Him Whom Strengthens Me, Philippians 4:13


qcpmsame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 04:19 PM   #11
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Bikes: 1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
Posts: 18,327
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 421 Post(s)
Admittedly a bit along the lines of "Doc, it hurts when I do this." .../... "Then, don't do that." but:

Why would a cyclist torque down on the smallest sprocket?


Everyone in this thread agrees they are rare, but were not 14-21 Cyclo Competition the default PA/PR/PX-10 freewheel in the early 1970s? At Bikecology we replaced a lot of those with 14-26 or 14-28 Cyclos and Atoms, because most folks shared my view that 45/21 is a bit tall for a bottom gear.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324
Capo: 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 07:43 PM   #12
pastorbobnlnh 
Freewheel Medic
Thread Starter
 
pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ascending or Descending the NH Mountains NW of Concord!
Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales, & a Lonely '83 Santana Tandem (* Ed.)
Posts: 10,605
Mentioned: 45 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 198 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcpmsame View Post
Bob, you asked if anyone could spot a crack in the cog a few posts back, none I can make out but what about a crack in just the lower portion of the two that thread into the body. If a crack was present there and it spread under load might the cogs skip then?

Just a thought from reading through all the replies from a couple of the knowledgeable guys here. I have only read about these freewheels, and seen one, out in the wild.

Bill
If only my Dad were still alive and working in his Quality Control lab at Martin's. He'd be able to take this in and look carefully at it under a high powered microscope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John E View Post
Admittedly a bit along the lines of "Doc, it hurts when I do this." .../... "Then, don't do that." but:

Why would a cyclist torque down on the smallest sprocket?

Everyone in this thread agrees they are rare, but were not 14-21 Cyclo Competition the default PA/PR/PX-10 freewheel in the early 1970s? At Bikecology we replaced a lot of those with 14-26 or 14-28 Cyclos and Atoms, because most folks shared my view that 45/21 is a bit tall for a bottom gear.
John, I wondered the same thing. I invited the owner to view this thread and let me know if I'm missing something, but I've not heard back from him in a couple of days.
__________________
Bob
Dreaming about riding in NH's summertime!

Visit my websites:
FreeWheelSpa.com orpastorbobnlnh.com
pastorbobnlnh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 07:52 PM   #13
qcpmsame 
Quality Engineering
 
qcpmsame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Barrineau Park, FL
Bikes: Several, three if you must know.
Posts: 11,787
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 780 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
If only my Dad were still alive and working in his Quality Control lab at Martin's. He'd be able to take this in and look carefully at it under a high powered microscope......snip
I wish I had met your dad! I do hope the owner of this freewheel takes you up on sending it in to your spa. And I have to agree with you and John, as well.

Bill
qcpmsame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-17, 08:08 PM   #14
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 14,993
Mentioned: 236 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John E
...At Bikecology we replaced a lot of those with 14-26 or 14-28 Cyclos and Atoms, because most folks shared my view that 45/21 is a bit tall for a bottom gear.
CCM's Tour du Canada was even worse. It came standard with a 46/18T bottom gear. Top gear was 50/14T. Basically, it was junior category, criterium gearing and pigeon-holed the bicycle.
T-Mar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:40 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION