djpubba

Hi all. Anyone recognize this frame? Nervex lugs, dropouts have a small hole for a specific derailleur type (Campagnolo Sport?), and it has unusual braze-on pump holder.

I think it'd make a nice randonneur!

djpubba

Full view.

juvela

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Pump holder shown is for the head of an Ad Hoc frame pump. It is Nervex Ref. 846. Companion pump peg for the other end is Nervex Ref. 845.



Combination of lugset, pump holder and seat stay treatment suggests a French origin.

Measurement of tube diameters and threading will likely be metric/french size.

Would expect a saddle pillar measurement of 26.6mm.

Measuring distance between head emblem fasteners may help to narrow possibilities of manufacturer ID.

Frame comes close to this Cizeron built Raphael Geminiani but the seat stay treatment differs -

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Fra...ni_Special.htm


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djpubba

Thank you! That's the closest match I've seen so far.

Head badge holes are 46mm apart.

Seat post is indeed 26.6.

An English bottom bracket did not fit. An Italian BB did not fit. I tried a Raleigh BB from a Schwinn Traveller and it fit.

It'd be super nice to know what head badge to look for!

Thanks much.

juvela

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Formerly owned one from ~1962 which was similar. Sold it to a local cycle collector friend. He had a Cyclart restoration done but eventually sold it as size a bit small for him. Have written to him to see if he might know head emblem fastener distance.

Am currently away from my bicycle things but can check when I get back there next week to see if there is one of these head emblems in my collection. Now that I know the dimension can check my other emblems as well...

Fit of Raleigh BB puzzling... One answer might be a Swiss threaded shell.

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djpubba

Thanks. No hurry.

Even if it's not a Geminiani I'm pleased to have gotten a Geminiani level quality frame from a junk bike peddler.

I took a bad measurement while it was hanging from the ceiling. I took it down to confirm -- the head badge holes are actually 48mm center to center.

merziac

Or a refit?

juvela

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Head emblem -

Heard back from my friend who owned the Geminiani I mentioned. He reminded me that it had an aluminum foil type head emblem affixed with adhesive so no help there.

In checking through my head emblems have not encountered any 48mm vertically arranged two-fastener ones as yet.

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Chrome -

Would imagine frame had half chrome blades and stays ex-works. To determine if there was crown and headlug chrome without disturbing the respray you could remove the head cups and fork crown race so as to be able to examine their seats.

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Serial and dating -

Ther serial number in the photo appears to 60(?)67, is that correct? Am unable to make sense of third character. It looks like it could be a letter L or the upper portion of a 4, or an upside down 7. Are you able to make sense of it? Sometimes it can help to lay a bit of paint into the markings to make them more legible.

The 60 and the 67 are both plausible dates. Would estimate that '67 is about the latest a manufacturer would have built a frame with a pump holder intended for the Ad Hoc head. Other heads were coming into widespread use by that time.

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Have your explorations resulted in any new information regarding the frame?

Best wishes with it.

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djpubba

Thanks for checking your head badges.

I need to repack the headset anyway so I'll check for chrome when I do that. Thanks for the tip.

Pretty sure the serial number is 49709 see attached Photoshop work. It couldn't be a '49 could it?

I haven't found any new info.

Kind regards,
Tim

juvela

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Thank you for the response.

Appreciate serial number sorting - no wonder that looked like an upside down numeral seven there in the middle!

Bike too late for a 1949 date. Its dropouts did not exist at that time. It is somewhere between mid-fifties and mid-sixties but have not seen anything to narrow it down more than that. Does it have a Nervex shell with the angles marked on the underside?

In me headplate collection found a Rochet and an Alpina (yes, there were French Alpina, know sound sounds Italian or even Swiss...) with the forty-eight mm dimension. Unlikely it is either. Could be a Cizeron built frame done for someone other the Geminani (wylde speculation).

Mentioned the chrome plating on crown an headlugs as its presence or absence might narrow a possible identification if you should get to a point where you have one or more probables/possibles. You might wish to keep an eye out for an Ad Hoc frame pump to fit those pegs. Both complete pumps and heads separately show up from time to time.

Do we have a reader with a Geminani who could measure their head emblem fastener dimension?

Suspect that if you were to post frame to CR list you might get an ID in short order. Someone like Norris might recognise her straightaway.

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rmfrance

Pretty sure it's either a Gitane-built Geminiani or a top-end Gitane clate-50s. Note Campagnolo dropouts with faint makings, typical of this era, plus distinctive seat stay caps.

John E

I am thinking Swiss BB, as well, perhaps retapped or force-threaded?

Swiss = 25.4 TPI (mm pitch); Raleigh = 26 TPI, which is a closer fit than ISO of 24 TPI.

Whatever it is, it looks pretty nice, albeit too tall for me.

steve sumner

the swedged seatstay cap certainly looks French but the Reynolds decal is written in English???
It would help to know the threading of the frame.

unworthy1

would "a Raleigh BB from a Schwinn Traveller" be using "Old Raleigh" 26tpi ? My understanding is that model were either "proudly made in America" when they were 3-speed "Tourist models" and should have been straight ISO threading when they were Asian-sourced in the 1980s. But I am not the vintage Schwinn expert at all. Totally agree this looks quite "French" and could have Swiss BB threading which may have been force-fitted with a Brit/ISO unit and had the threading "modified", not that uncommon. Never thought anybody would try that trick with a 26tpi Raleigh BB but stranger things have happened.

juvela

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we need to keep in mind that metric/BNA/"french" and CH threading have a pitch diameter of 35.0mm nominal while BSC/ISO/"Raleigh" have a pitch diameter of 34.85mm so that cups of the latter dimensions will at least start in a threading of the former in the case of the adjustable side and also in the case of the former on the fixed side, if fixed side of shell threaded CH

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Markeologist

Zombie thread but I'll join in. Sure looks like a MICMO-built, pre-65 (+/-) Gitane or Geminiani. Bike in question has Micmo's early swagged and crimped stay finish which is NOT the same as the one shown here which is capped (diagonal cut in seat stay top and cap is fitted and brazed in place). Also has MICMO's distinct pump peg seen on early 60s MICMOs. This seat stay shown by rmfrance was found on higher end MICMOs while the swagged and crimped was found on bikes a tier or two down from top. As I have reported elsewhere on BF, these styles predated the Carre-style willow leaf cap and the simpler swagged finish of the very late 60s and early 70s (after Geminiani was no longer a MICMO brand).