gugie 

PM sent.

stahlrahmen

Top-secret @gugie missions in the works... Will start a separate build thread soon

Dfrost 

Gotta love those secret missions at gugificazione!

Mine's coming along, according to Flickr.

63rickert

You wanted a Meral, here's a Meral.
Meral Un vrai randonneur français 650 B Mavic Maxi Car Reynolds Berthoud TA | eBay

I can tell you with certainty - ahem! - that this vendor cannot operate a ruler and that this frame is at least a 58. Which is plenty for a rider of 177cm. Top tube on short side. Includes all the extras shown. I can also tell you with certainty this vendor uses the most amazing added value packing material you have ever seen. What it will be who knows, you will get more than just a bike.

Patience. The bikes are out there.

non-fixie 

Tying up some loose ends here. I didn't wait for your build, @stahlrahmen, as I've got some hilly and gravelly touring to do next week. For reference: here's how my Miki-based build turned out. I was looking for something between between 'touring' and 'racing' in terms of comfort and handling, and so far I'm liking the results. 28mm tires is the maximum, though. Which is fine by me, as that's the size I like best anyway for the strade bianche.

NormanF

OP can buy a vintage Peugeot Reynolds 531 and do a 650B conversion.

I've done it. A correctly sized frame become even safer to ride on account of the smaller wheel size.

63rickert

On a budget....

60.5 cm MOTOBECANE Grand Touring 650 B by Pithioud Lyon | eBay

You could do a lot with this until the perfect bike comes along. And when you have perfection it would still be good for local rides on cobbles.

non-fixie 

Would you explain that, please?

NormanF

A 650B wheel is smaller than a 700C, so you lower the height of the frame and its even safer to ride it.

non-fixie 

Thanks for your reply. I can see your reasoning. But wouldn't the increased stability be more than offset by the increased risk of a pedal striking the ground while cornering?

Dfrost 

The pedal strike risk is pretty minor and entirely a rider-controllable (don't pedal through tight corners!)

I don't particularly notice the difference in stability when switching from 700C (32's) to 650B (38's) on the same bike. I was expecting to feel a big difference in stability as well as considerable steering feel change, but haven't noticed either to the degree expected. But the 650B improvements in ride comfort on rough road surfaces like old concrete or chip seal, and improved stability on gravel are very noticeable.

stahlrahmen

@non-fixie Your build looks great! I really love the composition of this frame.

As for me, gugie will be working on a booger-green Raleigh Super Tourer for me. I'll start a build thread once things get moving with it. I'm starting to collect some pieces. I'm also working on my own build for my wife using a Peugeot PK65 (mixte frame). Reynolds tubing, clearance for 42s with fenders, etc. Picked up a pair of Raids to go along with it. I'll start a build thread for that one as well.

Gugie has been convincing me to go with a modern cassette hub. I'm a sucker for old and solid so I keep saying I want to find some Maxi-cars in 130mm. He makes great points against it. So, as I'm starting to put together my parts list, anyone have some thoughts?
@non-fixie Could you detail your parts list? I see a TA crankset (will be using the same on mine). Have a build thread?

gugie 

It's only booger-green if you happen to have pneumonia.

Otherwise it's called "chartreuse". But you can choose any color you'd like!

non-fixie 

No build thread, sorry. Made a few random posts in the Wrenching thread (from post #477), while I was kind of feeling my way through this project. As for the parts list of this version:

Frame: built by Miki for Union (ST: 64cm C-T, TT: 55cm C-C)
Wheels: Weinmann "700 C" rims on Pelissier HF hubs
Cranksset: TA 5 vis, with Cyclotouriste rings 49/28
Brakes: Weinmann Vainqueur 999 (610 on both sides)
Brake levers: Weinmann 162
Front derailleur: Huret Jubilee
Shifters: Huret Jubilee
Rear derailleur: Huret Duopar Eco
Freewheel: Shimano 600 (14-17-20-24-28-32)
Saddle: Brooks B17
Stem: BLB CrMo quill stem
Bars: ?? (still need to identify those)
Bell: unmarked strike hammer type
Front light: Soubitez SP L23
Rear light: Koets B

A few additional notes:

• I first used Weinmann 144 levers with a couple of very posh Dia Compe cable hangers with built-in quick releases, but for some reason the brakes felt very mushy with that combination; much more than I expected. So I reverted to the original simple Weinmann hanger plates, and mounted 162 levers, so as to have a QR mechanism somewhere in the system. And now the braking action is nice and crisp again, like it should be.
• I prefer saddle bags to bar-mounted bags, hence the B17 instead of my favorite Professional
• The bag itself is a cheap faux leather no-name item, that I have used several times before and have grown quite fond of. It's light, fairly waterproof and just the right size for what I tend to schlepp along: a couple of rain jackets, spare inner tube, mini tools, a pair of sunglasses and some candy bars or sandwiches.
• the bike is meant for leisurely touring vacations in hilly countrysides with mrs non-fixie, not the concours de machines, so a range of 23-94 gear inches should serve me well.

rhm

The 650b rim is smaller than the 700c rim. Whether the whole wheel will be smaller, that depends on the tire.

A 650x42b tire is about the same diameter as a 700x21c tire.

If you change a 700 x 28 c wheel for 650x38b wheel, in theory you lower your bottom bracket by 9 mm.

Salamandrine 

Yes. Even 126 OLD freewheel hubs were prone to broken and bent axles. 130 is pushing it. Maxi-car hubs were rare as hen's teeth to begin with, and now they haven't been made for like 20 years. Spare parts could be a problem.

If you want more spacing than 120, IMO it's a much better idea to either use cassette hubs, or Phil Hubs with fat hollow axles, or the equivalent. If you want the red anodized end cap look, the Compass hubs are an option.

If you're really light and willing to sacrifice reliability for style, maxi-cars may be at least a reasonable choice. But stock up on spare axles while you still can.

cdmurphy

+1 to this. I'll happily use vintage 120mm or 126mm hubs if they're original to an otherwise period correct bike, but from a technical point of view, Shimano pretty well obsoleted the rest of the market with their freehub design. That, and modern seals really cut down on maintenance. Most older "vintage" hubs are wide open to dust and dirt ingress -- you really should tear them down and re-grease them every year or maybe 1000 miles, or sooner if you're riding in the rain or other crappy conditions. A modern hub, even Shimano's road stuff could probably go for 3-4 years of abuse before I'd even consider opening one up. There are quite a few nice road and MTB hubs from the 7-8-9 speed era that can be re-spaced to 126 or even 120 with the loss of a spacer or two and shortening the axles. No problem running 6 or 7 speed cassettes with the appropriate freehub, or spacers.

Aurorabucky

Looks like a great project, especially heading into winter! I really resonate because I'm about to start converting a Bottecchia Giro D'Italia into a 650B randonneur. I've been pouring through my Rebour illustrations looking for strategies at lighting and weight reduction.

I ended up looking for low-med trail steel frame with a low BB and maybe a little length on the chainstays. Also wanted a neutral fit where my bars could be up at the height of my seat (I'm over 6')

I ended up having 40mm of trail (75 deg angle), a low 80mm drop BB and a 42.5cm chainstay. I'll be keeping the pedal up on whichever side I turn for sure, but apart from that, the Bottecchia was remarkably close to my ideal.

What's astounding are the weights that Singer and Herse would put out. For my particular build, I'm really struggling to keep it to 25 lbs with fenders and lights. I think Singer bikes could some in at 23lbs fully equipped.

Anyhow, good luck in your project and I'm interested to see how it turns out.

non-fixie 

Sure, I'm aware of that. And I can think of compelling reasons why one would be interested in 650B. But so far I'm not convinced that "smaller wheels are safer" is one of them.

gugie 

This:

Constructeur bible.

Another great resource is Peter Weigle's flickr site. My wife calls both bike porn.

ThermionicScott 

Start a build thread for that bike, if you haven't already.

63rickert

Compass stocks replacement axles for Maxicar not because they break, but because some of the many surviving hubs have axles too short for modern frames. They do not break. Failure mode for Maxi is the spoke holes wear out and even that occurs only after extraordinarily long service. The tandem drum brake hubs do have undersized axles but that is not the current subject. Maxi has labyrinth seals, something way beyond what Shimano uses. Maxi grease stays clean. They used wonderful grease.

Reasons not to use them include that they are heavy. Really heavy. And you are committed to freewheels. The more of you who won't use good freewheels the more left for me. If you don't already have a knowledge base with extant freewheels good chance you aren't catching up.

63rickert

About axle breakage on freewheel hubs. Three reasons it occurs. 1) The dropouts are out of alignment. That will happen. Nothing is perfect. 2) Riders who are beasts and who rack up huge miles. Those riders do not and did not care. 3) The old hubs were designed for smaller and lighter riders. Most of us are just huge by vintage standards.

I weighed in at 192 this morning. I am pretty marginal for a freewheel hub. But I like them and have enough sense to stick with 5 speed. My wife is up to 102#. She will never break an axle. Even a skinny rider of say 140# would be at risk of breaking axles if carrying around 30# of baggage. Bags are unsuspended weight and they load the axles much harder than rider weight. Of course in the old days 30# of baggage was a lot, today's kitchen sink tourists should have an F-150 support vehicle. Touring weight is why the Maxi hubs were created. Anything close to reasonable they will handle and shrug off. Riders who weigh 260 and carry 80 should stay far from vintage anything.

There are lots of good reasons to prefer cassette hubs. You can prefer them without dissing freewheels.

A six speed freewheel on a 130 hub could be built up dishless, making a very strong rear wheel. A seven speed would result in a minimum dish wheel, still plenty strong for most touring loads. But the only 7 speed freewheels that were much good were SunTour Winner and DuraAce and those were only made a few years and mostly to racing spec. An eight speed freewheel could plausibly be used on a 130 but I have not seen an 8 I would want.

The vintage FWs I prefer, Regina and Atom, were made for decades. There is still inventory. There is still plenty of inventory in SunTour 888 Perfect as well and those are plenty good enough. As a vintage guy what bugs me about cassette hubs is they obsolete everything every six months. Are we shifting wired or wireless or hydraulic today? Or are we shifting with an app on the phone? Is there anyone anywhere who really knows all the parts to make all the derailleurs and all the shift control devices work? When you see the boxes of parts at the swap meet do you have any idea what that stuff fits? The LBS sure as heck has no idea what will work with what unless it is all brand new.

One of my axles in regular use is eighty years old. That would be an FB/Siamt. Siamt was out of business by 1940. Another FB hub, only 65 or 70 years old, uses a Campy Tipo axle that is perhaps only 30 or 40 years old. Service parts exist, not hard to get them. It is all quite easy if you are oriented.

On the other hand if you are not oriented and you want parts that work, not correct parts for wallhangers, just obviously you should use new production Campagnolo. Or Shimano if you must.

amedias

I've got a set of late 70s/early 80s MaxiCar hubs that have been hanging around here for a while waiting for
something suitable to build them up for. Most of the worry about axle breakage on FW hibs is valid, but I don't think so much for MaxiCars, the axles are strong, and I have only seen or heard of a few cases cases of axle issues (one bent, one cracked) with them they were both on hubs well over 40 years old, and one of them was on a tandem that had been used for loaded touring. They just dont seem to break like normal FW hubs, and certainly I wouldn't worry about using them on an audax/rando/sports tourer at my weight (70Kg).

If you're over 100Kg and carrying gear then I'd be more cautious, but then I'd be wary of many cassette freehubs for that kind of use too and would probably stick to Shimano with steel axles. Too many alu axle'd hubs with independant freehub bodies (ie: the actucal hub bearings are too inboard) that will suffer an early death with such usage.

Salamandrine 

I'd venture that the extra reinforcement sleeve on Maxi-car axles does add strength compared to a standard 10mm all thread axle. It has clearly been placed in the most vulnerable spot. So I concede that it isn't entirely fair to lump Maxi-cars with standard freewheel hubs.

Anyway, I'm not slagging freewheel hubs. I like them and use them. Just noting that extending the original axle length another 10-15 mm to fit modern frames is going to exacerbate a known liability. Also noting that Maxi-car hubs are no longer made, and quite expensive. Additionally, spare axles may or may not be available in the future. If it's worth it for the OP, great, but I don't think I would pick them for this project.

FWIW I'm (formerly) one of the #2 group 63rickert mentions, and I would break a campy hub axle perhaps once a year when I was a high miler, despite being about 165lbs then and light on the bike. This was during the 126 6 speed era, and considered par for the course then.