USAZorro

Will a lot of people own them and ride them? Sure.

Are they bicycles? No.

That simple.

gomango

Agreed.

I just want these people riding these things off the local paths.

Good gracious, they are a real danger.

Passing on the left and right at 23-26 mph is not cool.

KonAaron Snake 

Have you seen the motorized skate boarders yet?

Classtime 

Exactly. Guys and gals are flying down the path here weaving in and out of pedestrians and cyclists. I ride with some pretty strong dudes who also commute. None of them commute at 20 mph. AND they know it is stupid to do more than 11 or 12 on a crowded afternoon. I hope it is not a kid with training wheels making a u-turn that finally wakes people up.

Classtime 

I trust the skaters skill set more.

USAZorro

Motorized vehicles have no business on walking/bike paths. Quite a debate about them belonging on MTB trails too. The authorities responsible for regulating paths and trails really need to get in front of this with at least signage.

55murray

Probably not, because many consider them bikes, no matter what they might be called. If you install a Copenhagen wheel on your bike, you don't have a bike and you are not cycling or bike riding.

Kevindale

When I read the thread title, I imaged the question involved someone taking an add-on mid drive motor, like Bafang makes, and putting it on a vintage road bike. I think that could make a pretty stylish e-bike, though I don't think most of these motors wouldn't work with BB shells of older bikes. As others have said, these pedal assist motors open up bicycling to a lot of people who won't bike now because they either can't handle hills, or have disabilities that restrict them, or they don't want to arrive to work exhausted and sweaty.

The issue of people using electric bikes inappropriately applies to just about every vehicle. Lots of car drivers think regular bikes are ridden unsafely and inappropriately when they're on the road, especially in urban settings. Lots of cars and trucks and especially motorcycles are driven unsafely and inappropriately. That's not inherent in the vehicle, it's the poor judgment of the driver. I agree pedal-assist bikes shouldn't be used on dedicated MUPs. It's definitely a problem when someone who has no experience riding a bicycle above 12 mph is suddenly on a bike with a motor that can easily do 25-30 mph and has never experienced the need to do an emergency stop or seen what happens when a faster bike clips the handlebar of a slower bike when passing.

Anyway, to answer the original question, I think the answer is no. If nothing else, battery technology won't age well at all.

Pompiere

My wife was looking at one at the LBS earlier this summer. The motor only assisted if you were pedaling. You could change the amount of assistance provided, but in no matter what the setting was, the assistance topped out at 19 mph. I took it for a short ride and found the assistance to be seamless. You ride it like any other bike. It felt like there was always a tail wind.

Our MUP may not have the traffic that some others have, but I don't have an issue with electric assist bikes on it. If you can sit back and ride it like a motorcycle, then you should be on the road. Oblivious walkers and joggers, with ear buds in, going side-by-side across the whole path are more of a hazard.

Edit: I forgot the original question. In 20 years, today's electric bikes may be a curiosity or have a small group of collectors, but batteries may not be available. I have a cabinet full of old cameras as evidence to support this theory.

Classtime 

When "cyclists" promote electric motors on bicycles as not changing the essence of the bicycle ("you still have to pedal"), it just blows my mind. More and more, I'm starting to think that one day, non-motorized bicycles will be retro. EFFING SAD.

Bad Lag

That is ingenious and looks very well designed. I would not be surprised, at all, if that could be sold to consumers either as a stock piece of gear or as a retrofit.


For stock installations, provide a charging port (connector).


For retrofit applications - pull the seat to extract the cartridge for charging or use an inductive charger dropped down through the open end of the seat tube.

55murray

+1

USAZorro

My attitude about e-bikes/pedal-assists is downright tolerant compared to my attitude about having "autonomous vehicles" on the road with me.

jefnvk

What is EFFING SAD is that a device that could get people who otherwise wouldn't/couldn't cycle places on a bike is looked down with such snobbery and disdain. I saw quite a few people bike touring (or long distance commuting) on these in the Netherlands where they are rather ubiquitous, would I prefer them to be sitting on a couch or driving in a car? If they enjoy cycling, but can't deal with headwinds or hills, am I really gaining anything by telling them to skip the assist and HTFU?

E-bikes may not be for me, then again neither are lightweight race bikes or cruisers. If someone enjoys being on a bike and it happens to have a pedal assist motor, who am I to judge them and insist they call it something else?

jeirvine 

In Europe, there these things are really catching on, regulations limit them to 25kph - about 15.5 mph for use on paths. New Type-Approval for Speed E-Bikes Now Effective - Bike Europe

I'd be fine with that. Of course in regulation-phobic anything-goes USA, we are a little behind the curve on setting reasonable and safe limits. But I have no problem with something like this that gets more folks commuting.

I have friends who live car free, with a bike and the occasional Zipcar. I could see E-assist bikes filling this sort of need.

USAZorro

I don't see where anyone begrudges folks using them. The points I do see being made are that; strictly, and practically speaking, these are something different from unmotorized bicycles; consideration for safe usage (especially with regard to spaces designated for unmotorized conveyances) needs to taken into account; while it is likely that current adopters will likely have some attachment to these things a dozen years or so down the road, they (not really being bicycles) are in a different category than unmotorized bicycles. Some folks may have an interest in both, but I suspect most will not.

There's also a certain amount of purism that seems justified as well. I can see how someone could enjoy tooling around on one of these things for 5 - 6 hours on a nice day. I can also see how someone who rode 100 miles without assistance might make a bit of a face if the e-bike rider boasts about "riding a century" to them - especially if not mentioning the assistance from the motor. This is not the same thing as opposing them, or putting down people who use them, it's being honest.

Vintage_Cyclist

Motorized bicycles are motor vehicles. I suspect that in most areas they are technically illegal. Unlike most motor vehicles, they aren't following M/V safety inspection requirements, insurance requirements, following the rules of the road, etc.

jethin

I'm fine with ebikes, but not with the current lack of regulation of them. IF they're to be allowed on bike/ped paths they need to have a speed limit for safety. This limit will need to be imposed on the machine -- not the driver -- otherwise it will be ignored and unenforceable.

Otherwise they can go on the streets with the other motorized vehicles. I suspect this wouldn't turn out well.

I see ebike guys regularly doing 30+ mph on paths. They are nearly silent and often driving aggressively. One swerve to avoid something and someone's going to get hurt -- probably the ped/cyclist.

On the original topic, no, these will never be C&V.

jefnvk

A) I don't think the people riding these things are boasting about cycling achievements to too many people, and
B) even if they were, what is it to me? Unless you are actually racing (an application I agree they don't belong in), what does it really matter what someone else claims to have done? It is not like folks on regular bikes don't embellish their stories regularly. I've got much better things to do than get angry that someone on an e-bike is talking about how they did a century. One of my college buddies has done centuries on a fixie, should he look down on those of us with freehubs and shifters?

Or, to put it another way, I met a guy on a mass ride over the holiday weekend, who added e-assist on his recumbent trike to help with hills, he was on the 340 miles over 4.5 days option. He was well up in the years, and likely wouldn't have been on the ride without it. Should I have reminded him that his achievement wasn't the same as mine? Or should I have done what I did, and asked him about his unique looking ride and gave him a smile and a wave and a "wish I had that right now" as he zipped up the hill?

I'm a big fan of "ride your ride". If for someone that means they are doing a century with e-assist, well good for them. They are still getting a helluva better workout than many folks, and I just don't derive competition from what the person next to me is doing. If I need that, I'll enter a race where the rules and objectives are established.

USAZorro

I don't advocate being rude to people unless they REALLY do something deliberate to deserve it.

The guy on the ride you described - more power to him. Your friend who rode a fixed century - I consider it as more of an accomplishment than me riding it on a geared bike. Similarly, I consider anyone riding it faster than me, or someone with a significant disability completing it. I'd not hesitate to tell any of them as much.

On the other hand, I don't look down my nose at people who ride slower than I do, and I won't say anything critical of another rider unless I see them doing something that might endanger the safety of others. It's simply being civil, and I think that applies to nearly everyone here. That said, riding under power the entire time is a different experience. Taking an assist now and again is a bit less so. I don't feel compelled to volunteer this opinion, but if specifically asked, I'll say that I think it's a bit different.

From the "vintage" perspective - I grew up mostly during the 70's. That's primarily where my interests lie. I have a couple of bicycles that are newer and a couple that are older. They interest me some also. On bike forums there are plenty of folks who are interested in bicycles of different eras. Some of it I find interesting and appealing. Others, not so much - but I don't make a habit of telling others that I think their babies are wretched. There are also some C&V folks who like old cars, motorcycles, guitars, cameras, audio equipment. A few threads about these other interests are cool. I sometimes learn some new things. If there comes a time when there are C&V e-bikes, and there is a following for them, I don't mind seeing some threads about them, but frankly, they don't interest me. I'd definitely prefer them to have their own community, especially as I don't think the overlap of interests is likely to be very great.

We can coexist civilly and respectfully, but C&V bikes and "pedal assist" bikes are apples and pears.

robertorolfo

As others have said, the main issue is with where, and how, they are used. There are tons of them being used by delivery guys in NY, and they are constantly in the bike lane. Some of them don't even have pedals, and I have no idea why the cops aren't doing something about it. The silence is also a big issue (also with electric cars).

I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but if you want to ride a scooter/moped, you need to ride in traffic.

Vintage_Cyclist

Hands-off policy by Kaiser Wilhelm. That's a job function very heavily populated by undocumented citizens (the politically correct term); so they don't want to accidentally on purpose take one of them into custody.

gomango

Since school started, I have seen two types of boards.

One is a regular skate board and the other is an electric platform.

Both are equally dangerous when driven at full speed and of course, erratically.

It's like the wild, wild west in the Twin Cities.

If this is the new norm, I'll spend even more time on gravel and off road.

At least the skateboards don't have fat tires yet.......

BTW These things are not c&v, they are simply yet another energy suck on the grid. imho

gomango

I saw a guy riding on a local mtb trail with an electric TREK recently.

Too fast and the rider was unskilled.

He'll end up hurt badly on that ugly thing.

squirtdad

maybe no fat tires with 2 wheels anyway