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Re-use 600 hubs or new wheels?

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Re-use 600 hubs or new wheels?

Old 09-18-17, 03:23 PM
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Re-use 600 hubs or new wheels?

I have a stock Trek 5220 road bike. On the last two longer rides I did on it, the wheel went out of true. To be fair, the first ride had a slight wreck about 20 miles from the finish. LBS re-trued the wheel and looked the bike over, declared it good to go. Took it out on a metric century where the bike felt sluggish (I'm sure I felt sluggish too, lol) however, could see that the wheel was slightly out of true about halfway through the ride. I finished, the wheel got no worse, but this time the LBS declared the rear wheel was not likely to remain true with riding (though it had been re-trued), and recommended replacement. The original wheels on the bike are Mavic CXP 21's with the aforementioned Shimano 600 hubs.

Although I purchased the bike used, based on condition/wear of the parts, it looked like a garage queen. I've put some miles on it, but not a ton. So, I could throw a fairly inexpensive and serviceable set of mavic open pros with 105 hubs on it for $250 (or suggest comparable priced model?), or assuming the 600 hubs on the original wheel set are good, I could have them serviced and re-laced in new rims. I'd entertain suggestions for either. It's a nice bike, but so far, not one I've found particularly comfortable...maybe it's a sizing/fit thing, as this one is a 50 and I normally ride a 52...so, I'll keep and ride it occasionally, but it will never be my high mileage bike. If suggesting re-lacing, would love some suggestions on rims. Originally, the bike was specc'd with 28's, though not knowing tire clearance when I ordered some tires for it, I figured it would max out at 25, so that's what I've got on there...I'd like a rim that will be wide enough to throw 28's on there. Thanks.
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Old 09-18-17, 03:51 PM
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600 hubs are nice, but would be pricey to rebuild, probably more than new set. Take a look at these:

Mavic Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike
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Old 09-18-17, 05:20 PM
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I got a new set of shimano 105 hubs laced to mavic open sports for less than 140 bucks on a close out and discount from Nashbar just a few months ago. Open sports are from what I've read were replaced by Open Elites. True that Open Pros are a step up and lighter, but not by much. Only got about 400 miles on the wheels, but I like them. Still run true even after the bumpy roads.

For the price you can get a fully built wheel and new hub, I go for them. Especially when you can find someone deep discounting them. But there is something to be said for supporting your local wheel builders. Even if that is you.
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Old 09-18-17, 05:34 PM
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If building yourself, reusing hubs makes good sense. However, shop builds often end up costing more than a new wheel bought pre-built.

I'd only take a used hub in for a shop rebuild if it was something very special.

When comparing locally built to pre-built, keep in mind that it's often about more than money. A good hand builder's wheels are likely to be better than most pre-builts. In fact many buyers of pre-built wheels pay a local to rework them immediately upon receipt, which cuts into the savings.
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Old 09-18-17, 06:14 PM
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Why won't the old rim stay true? Are the spoke nipples pulling out of the rim, or something else?

If the spoke nipples aren't pulling out of the rim, and there's no cracks in the rim, my advice would be to get a decent spoke wrench for a few bucks, flip the bike upside down, and true the wheel yourself, this time tightening the spokes more.

If the rim does show visible failure, get a new rim, tape it to the old rim and transfer the spokes to the new rim yourself, using your new spoke wrench. Sheldon Brown has an easy to follow guide for this. I did this a while back and despite never having done it before, it took less than 2 hours including trueing the wheel.
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Old 09-18-17, 06:39 PM
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Like others have chimed in with, it doesn't make financial sense to pay a shop to relace that hub to a different rim.

It is a great candidate for attempting a repair yourself - repacking the hub, attempting to true the existing wheel, or trying your hand at lacing up the hub to a new rim.

If you get a new wheelset with the 105 (5800) hubs, you will need to do some research to see if the cassette from the 600 hub is compatible with the new hub, and if it is, will you need a spacer of some sort. The new hub is 10\11 speed, the stock hub on that bike is a 9 speed.
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Old 09-18-17, 07:45 PM
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Make sure your hubs' races and spoke holes are in good shape before deciding to re-lace.
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Old 09-19-17, 03:00 AM
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This thread is a great example of why I think it is a good idea to learn how to build wheels. Craptacular8, give it a shot!
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Old 09-19-17, 05:32 AM
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if the hubs are in good condition then there's absolutely no reason to replace. A new hub wont gain you any thing other than a lighter wallet and this could be a good opportunity for you to learn how to do a rim swap.

Even if you cant do the final tension and true that should be a lot cheaper to pay the LBS to do than a full rebuild.
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Old 09-19-17, 07:28 AM
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I loves me some 600 hubs, especially the 7-speed hyperglide version. They look great, they fit a modern cassette, and with 126 spacing, they fit older frames and make a strong rear wheel. This is a perfect opportunity to begin learning the art of wheelbuilding. And if you do buy new wheels, I'll take your old hubs.
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Old 09-19-17, 08:30 AM
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^^ Everything [MENTION=260407]jeirvine[/MENTION] said, with the exception that I already have a pretty good stash of 7-speed hubs.

I've reused an old hub on at least 4 wheels I've built so far, and 3 rims on others, and in some cases the parts weren't all that special to begin with. You get a little more of that "wheelbuilding experience" when you reuse old stuff that has wear and might not be factory-straight anymore.
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Old 09-19-17, 08:34 AM
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It used to be normal to reuse hubs over and over again, and normal for quality hubs to outlast a rim. There were no high quality prebuilt "wheelsets" available, and a rebuild was SOP. Back when I raced and rode everyday, the campy hubs on my training wheels would get new rims on average a couple times a year -- at least for the back wheel. Rims are a consumable.

But yeah, today it's sort of a wash between rebuilding and buying a new set, unless you can do it yourself.

Another thing to consider is why they need a rebuild. IMO if you're not getting at least about 5000 miles out of the rims, it'd be a good idea to use a stronger rim and/or more spokes.
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Old 09-19-17, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
... Another thing to consider is why they need a rebuild. IMO if you're not getting at least about 5000 miles out of the rims, it'd be a good idea to use a stronger rim and/or more spokes.
More spokes = better strength-to-weight ratio and better truability and repairability. The current low spoke count fad is a disservice to the average rider, who is best served by a traditional 3X or 4X pattern with 32, 36, or 40 spokes.
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Old 09-19-17, 08:49 AM
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Thanks for the advice all. The mechanic at the LBS that performed the most recent trueing wasn't in the shop when I picked the bike up, so not sure why they thought the rim was toast. I'm not opposed to learning to service and re-lace the hub myself, not like it will be a real hard ship if I get into the project and can't get it done to my satisfaction...I can always resort to new if it is a complete bollocks.
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Old 09-19-17, 10:07 AM
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only thing to note..is that even rebuilding a wheelset with your own hubs, costs can get close to buying a wheelset from a place like velomine

72 spokes = 72 $, nipples, Rims (mavic open pro) 140-160 for a pair

I think this is regrettable, as it discourages diy but it it what it is
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Old 09-19-17, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
72 spokes = 72 $, nipples, Rims (mavic open pro) 140-160 for a pair
At Danscomp, 72 spokes = $28.80, including nipples.
https://www.danscomp.com/products/43...ted_Spoke.html

And Velo-Orange has 700c Escapade touring rims on sale for $30@:
https://store.velo-orange.com/index....apade-rim.html
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Old 09-19-17, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jeirvine
At Danscomp, 72 spokes = $28.80, including nipples.
https://www.danscomp.com/products/43...ted_Spoke.html

And Velo-Orange has 700c Escapade touring rims on sale for $30@:
https://store.velo-orange.com/index....apade-rim.html
Any experience with the Escapade rims? I'm doing a rando/light touring build and was going for these or CR18s.
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Old 09-19-17, 10:52 AM
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[MENTION=388819]Craptacular8[/MENTION] - sounds like you have uneven tension, if the rim is OK. The rim is the weakest component. The systems weakest link is uneven spoke tension. Well sometimes the rider is the systems weakest link, depending on road conditions!
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Old 09-19-17, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon3
Any experience with the Escapade rims? I'm doing a rando/light touring build and was going for these or CR18s.
What kind of total weight are you looking at? The two rims look very similar, the Escapade basically being a 6mm wider CR18.
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Old 09-19-17, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SJX426
[MENTION=388819]Craptacular8[/MENTION] - sounds like you have uneven tension, if the rim is OK. The rim is the weakest component. The systems weakest link is uneven spoke tension. Well sometimes the rider is the systems weakest link, depending on road conditions!
Not really--insufficient spoke tension, rather than uneven. Threaded fasteners such as spokes require a certain amount of tension to be self-locking, otherwise they may loosen. A spoke sees a cyclical load: it goes up to a maximum tension, then down to a minimum tension, then back up, then down, following a sinusoidal pattern. If the minimum tension is too low, the spoke will loosen.

Therefore all spokes must be tightened to a sufficient level such that the threads don't drop below their self-locking ability as the wheel spins under load. Once that minimum threshold is passed, the next objective is to true the rim. There are manufacturing tolerances to be considered here; variations in the manufacture of the spoke, the rim, and the hub. These may or may not be significant, so achieving exactly "X" amount of tension in each spoke may not result in a true rim! Our goal therefore should be achieving a true rim; whether or not the spoke tension is exactly equal from spoke to spoke is irrelevant provided that all spokes are sufficiently tensioned to maintain the thread's self-locking property as the wheel rotates. If that's the case (sufficient tension) then any one spoke isn't going to be affected if another spoke has slightly higher tension.

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Old 09-19-17, 12:55 PM
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Being a long time mechanic, and having trued thousands of wheels, I have a more pragmatic view:

Wheels get old. The rims get bent in use -- whether from potholes, little wrecks, or just repeated stress. When they are trued, the spoke tension gets progressively more uneven. Eventually they get to the point where the spokes start breaking and/or the wheel won't stay true. Time to rebuild.
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Old 09-19-17, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
only thing to note..is that even rebuilding a wheelset with your own hubs, costs can get close to buying a wheelset from a place like velomine

72 spokes = 72 $, nipples, Rims (mavic open pro) 140-160 for a pair

I think this is regrettable, as it discourages diy but it it what it is
It does make me sad. I pay the extra for the privilege of building my own wheels. It has become impractical, but I haven't stopped doing it. I build wheels at any opportunity because I enjoy it so much.

I have a pair of wheels I am about to retire. The rear is out of round, the replacement axle is questionable, and the pair is 27", and I'm converting the bike to 700c. I built the wheels in about 1984.
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Old 09-19-17, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Being a long time mechanic, and having trued thousands of wheels, I have a more pragmatic view:

Wheels get old. The rims get bent in use -- whether from potholes, little wrecks, or just repeated stress. When they are trued, the spoke tension gets progressively more uneven. Eventually they get to the point where the spokes start breaking and/or the wheel won't stay true. Time to rebuild.
Certainly true, what we don't know here is whether these rims are truly worn out, or the spokes were merely not tightened enough. These are relatively recent rims, right? Makes me suspect the latter, and it's cheap and easy for the OP to retrue them himself to see if they stay true.
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Old 09-19-17, 01:12 PM
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Yup. What Sal said. If the rim is bent such that a spoke(s) need to be tightened much more than adjacent spokes to bring the rim back to true, it will go out of true as you ride it.

I'd buy a new Ultegra/Open-Pro wheel set and then rebuild your 600 wheel set at your leisure.
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Old 09-19-17, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nashvillebill
Certainly true, what we don't know here is whether these rims are truly worn out, or the spokes were merely not tightened enough. These are relatively recent rims, right? Makes me suspect the latter, and it's cheap and easy for the OP to retrue them himself to see if they stay true.
These are the original rims/hubs to a 1998 Trek 5520, Mavic CXP21s, so essentially 20 years old. What I don't know is amount of mileage. I know what's been put on it in the past few months I've owned it, but that's all. The bike I guess could have had a lot of very carefully put on miles, it just appeared to be in show room condition, so I certainly could have been very mistaken as to it's having been a garage queen.

Having never built a wheel before, I did go out and do some reading...do you guys that build your own have a truing stand, etc? Once I started reading, especially the park tool website, where it recommends only an expert build the wheel, I looked at the tools it recommended I acquire, the truing stand, etc. easily exceeding the cost of a new wheel set. Of course I could re-use those items, but definitely a fair amount of start up expense...who knows, maybe I'd enjoy wheel building enough to so many others in the future, lol.
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