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-   -   '71ish Gitane Super Corsa frame question prior to build. (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1124714-71ish-gitane-super-corsa-frame-question-prior-build.html)

non-fixie 10-12-17 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by Grand Bois (Post 19924845)
I recommend measuring carefully and then choosing brakes with the appropriate reach.

+1. Stick a wheel in it, and see where you're at.

greg3rd48 10-12-17 10:36 AM


Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 19925076)
+1. Stick a wheel in it, and see where you're at.

Will do this weekend! Thanks.

unworthy1 10-12-17 06:23 PM


Originally Posted by greg3rd48 (Post 19924359)
[MENTION=17926]unworthy1[/MENTION] Campagnolo dropouts and forkends.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4512/...cad7b489_h.jpgUntitled by irishbx4th, on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/...a9b416d1_h.jpgUntitled by irishbx4th, on Flickr
[MENTION=31158]satbuilder[/MENTION] Yes it is. This should be an enjoyable build.

OK, I am convinced and was mistaken about Campy sidepulls being a fixed spec for SCs and dictating anything about the centerpull bridge.
I had a "70 era TdF that also had this "leaf" staycap feature and was pretty nicely brazed, or so I thought at the time. It had Simplex forged DOs with the "finger" on the NDS, Simplex forkends. It looked VERY sharp after I had new paint sprayed by Ed Litton! He also brazed the Campy RD boss to the DO and some other nice braze-ons. Too bad I sold that thing during a house-move!

BlueDevil63 10-12-17 09:11 PM

So this was previously my bike. Definitely a Super Corsa, almost certainly a '72 or '73 as when it came to me it was all original. Believe it had Mafac centerpulls. It also had badly faded paint, spider rust under the paint and scorched decals. Hence the attempt at a repaint (after removing all the spider rust) which I badly botched. Not wanting to put any more time into it I sold it. Definitely a Super Corsa though and definitely Campy dropouts.

63rickert 10-13-17 06:09 AM

CV6

Given that other Gitanes never show more than the most basic competence at metalwork it is hard to imagine where the factory would have found the employees who could do a fair copy of a master's work. In OP's photo 3 the stay plates form a graceful arch when viewed from behind. You can look at those Carré plates from any angle and they will show grace. Factory hands can't do that. The signature and documentation you are looking for is written in metal.

rustystrings61 10-13-17 10:11 AM

Respectfully, I must disagree with 63rickert's assertion that Gitanes never showed more than basic competence.

Have a look at this Gitane's seat stay caps and compare them with the OP's.

Unfortunately, the majority of TdFs and Super Corsas I have seen came from the period when Gitane simply swaged the seat stay caps. Later in the 70s they came back with an emblem stamped into them to make them distinctive.

EDIT: Look at this B. Carre-built frame and its seat stay caps. The shape on these and the other Carre seat stay ends I see online look like they are slightly more diamond-shaped, less rounded than the Gitanes. Maybe it's just my eyes ....

LouB 10-13-17 10:51 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a '70 Gitane catalog showing both options for brakes Mafac Racer Luxe and Campy:

noglider 10-13-17 12:49 PM

[MENTION=384048]greg3rd48[/MENTION], I probably have the brake doodad you would need if you decide to use center-pull brakes.

greg3rd48 10-13-17 01:06 PM

[MENTION=152773]noglider[/MENTION] Fantastic! That is the route I am looking to go. Hopefully there is no problem with the reach.

CV-6 10-13-17 01:09 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 19926744)
CV6

Given that other Gitanes never show more than the most basic competence at metalwork it is hard to imagine where the factory would have found the employees who could do a fair copy of a master's work. In OP's photo 3 the stay plates form a graceful arch when viewed from behind. You can look at those Carré plates from any angle and they will show grace. Factory hands can't do that. The signature and documentation you are looking for is written in metal.

The only accurate statement to be made concerning the origin of that frame is that it is possibly Carré. Techniques and "trademarks" can be reproduced. We will just have to agree to disagree on who for sure built this frame.

Don't get me wrong. I would enjoy if it were proven to be a Carré. It would only add to his story. I have four Lejeunes that likely came from his shop and three B. Carré marked frames. So my interest is a bit above casual.

63rickert 10-13-17 02:38 PM

rustystrings
What you are looking at there, IMO, is another not-a-Gitane. In the 80s there were also a small number of Alain Michel built frames stickered as Gitanes. Not sure if those were team only or if they could also be purchased. Sure can be purchased now, they come up regularly. Carré had a number of variations on the theme, it is still not hard at all to recognize his caps.
CV6
Ok, agree to disagree. Am a little jealous, I only have one. Just got off it. If this Luddite could post pics I would. Extra short lugs, so heavily brass-filled and finely tapered they can look as if a fillet braze from ten feet. Plates are stamped. Ride is amazing, something new and never experienced in a lifetime on bikes. Foolishly sold the Gitane stickered bike but no room here for seven of anything. If you wanted to consider the issue further you could try looking at how other builders do overlapping plates. It is not an easy trick to pull off. Even great builders as Norman Taylor or René Andre had, again IMO, less success with it than Carré. Or ask a builder you know for his opinion.

VVC 10-13-17 02:39 PM

Had a Gitane with just the same - centre pulls....

non-fixie 10-13-17 04:36 PM

Interesting to see that the TdF was actually lighter than the Super Corsa. Must be the Delrin.

CV-6 10-13-17 07:22 PM

The Super Corsa I owned came with sidepulls. And the finish was not anywhere near the finish on the OP's frame.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7055/...2fd2d33c_b.jpgGitane Super Corsa by L Travers, on Flickr

Grand Bois 10-14-17 07:20 AM


Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 19928225)
Interesting to see that the TdF was actually lighter than the Super Corsa. Must be the Delrin.

Yes, and the awful plastic saddle.

1simplexnut 10-15-17 12:56 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by greg3rd48 (Post 19925028)
The more folks add to this thread the more I look forward to starting the build.

hiya here is how Carlton did a very similar bridge

greg3rd48 10-18-17 06:13 AM

The frame was dropped off yesterday at the PC shop. I have used them previously and was very pleased with their work. In a few weeks the build shall commence.

JT1973 10-18-17 09:53 AM

Love the discussion so far as I've got a maybe-Carre shop LeJeune from the early 70s. As to the question of which brakes, I'll put a vote in for Mafac Competition center pulls. I love mine. The shortest reach mafac models have "451" stamped on the back of the centerpull plate. Look for that in your search. These plates work with other models and years of racers and competition brakes, though not raids because the post spacing is wider for Raids. There also was an "adjustable" back plate which I think mainly gives you more reach and looks like a longer rectangle around the brake bolt hole (with vertical lines for grip within the casting around that brake hole). Racers marked "dural forge" have the brass bushings of later competitions. Competitions with Peugeot or Simplex stickers sometimes sell for less money. I also prefer the competition models with a quick release straddle cable. The earliest generation of competitions have a straddle cable with adjustable length and the quick release tab. Kool Stop 4-dot pads also a great upgrade for these brakes.
Good luck!

JT1973 10-19-17 10:25 AM

Edit: "Spidel" marked competitions, not "simplex."

greg3rd48 10-01-19 09:58 AM


Originally Posted by noglider (Post 19927735)
[MENTION=384048]greg3rd48[/MENTION], I probably have the brake doodad you would need if you decide to use center-pull brakes.

Tom, I FINALLY have come around to this project and it is on its way. Do you happen to have that brake bridge doodad?

noglider 10-02-19 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by greg3rd48 (Post 21145828)
Tom, I FINALLY have come around to this project and it is on its way. Do you happen to have that brake bridge doodad?

My small parts are in disarray, but I will take a look. Also, I'll soon give you an update on that mixte bike. I'll be working on it at the coop.

sykerocker 10-02-19 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by unworthy1 (Post 19923358)
Not to throw "cold water" and in this case it really isn't cold at all, but would this be a Super Corsa given the centerpull brake bridge or more likely a Tour de France with Campy dropouts? We know Gitane substituted dropout brands with cheerful abandon and since the fork's gone we don't know what forkends came with it...I just thought Gitane left the CP hanger bridge OFF the SC which came with Campy sidepulls. But then again, it IS Gitane in the '70s, so all bets are off. ;)

Thinking back to the '73 I bought new when I lived in Erie, it originally came with Mafac Competitions. Of course, since the rest of the bike was Campagnolo, I just had to have Campy side pulls. Big mistake. Big, big, mistake. Made worse by my selling off the Mafacs to partially pay for the brake upgrade. And yes, mine had the brake cable bridge.

greg3rd48 10-02-19 06:40 PM

So I am in no way staying close to OEM on this build. I am just enjoying the process and probably will adjust many aspects later on as usually happens. I found a bit of free time to install the French thread VO headset, and stem with Nitto bars. I also put in the 26.4mm seatpost and the seatpost binder bolt. A little progress and hopefully more tomorrow.

bikemig 10-02-19 07:06 PM


Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 19922773)
I thought you might, which I why I mentioned it. I found that even the short reach "RACER" was too long. The MAFAC "Competition" should work, though. I didn't have a pair available at the time for my TdF, so I mounted Weinmann 500 sidepulls for the time being. As you can see, even those are at their limit:

https://myalbum.com/photo/7Fhc4bLehuoQ/1k0.jpg

That's good to know (and a bit of a bummer). I have an early 70s Gitane TdF and it definitely needs a short reach brake. I haven't built it yet. That's too bad that a mafac racer might not work. The problem with the competitions is that I don't think you can find a straddle cable for them very easily (if at all).

I know the mafac competitions were original equipment on many of these early Gitanes. According to velobase the reach is not all that different between the competitions and the racers:

Competitions: reach from 49 mm to 59 mm
Racers: reach from 53 mm to 58 mm

Schreck83 10-03-19 04:52 AM

Mafac Competition straddle cables
 
Search for mafac cable from seller "allcampagnolo" on the big auction site. I bought a pair of new stainless steel cables recently; just the ticket.


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