English bike hierarchy opinions
10-30-17, 12:45 AM
#51
Senior Member
And before Ernie Whitcomb made bikes under his own name he worked for EA Boult. Around 1952 he bought the business from the retiring Boult and over the next few years transitioned the name as his reputation became established.
A 1952 Boult I have recently refurbished
I also have a 1946 Hobbs of Barbican 'Raceweight' and a current project is a 1952 Hobbs 'Blue Riband'.
I find the lugwork on some of the bikes excessive, and I was interested to be informed by the original EA Boult owner, that the lugs were not highlighted, but the radical spearpoint design was how it was painted by Boult.
I like the late 1940s-early 1950s; many component manufacturers. On the above bike there are parts from Britain (GB bars, GB spearpoint stem, GB Superhood brake levers and GB Coureur calipers, Cyclo rear derailleur lever, Cyclo front wing nuts, Bluemels pump, Boa (Constrictor) pedals, Constrictor Boaloy rims, Blumfields hubs, Pennine CO2 pump, Brooks saddle (original)
French: Simplex bottle cage, Stronglight steel cranks, Huret cable front derailleur
Italian: Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailleur and gear lever.
The bike owner had the opportunity to be measured for the frame, then chose the components to suit the purpose (and the available funds). With so many competing manufacturers there was real choice and innovation. Just like the British framebuilders.
The Boult served its original owner well over the 63 years he owned it. Well made and cherished.
A 1952 Boult I have recently refurbished
I also have a 1946 Hobbs of Barbican 'Raceweight' and a current project is a 1952 Hobbs 'Blue Riband'.
I find the lugwork on some of the bikes excessive, and I was interested to be informed by the original EA Boult owner, that the lugs were not highlighted, but the radical spearpoint design was how it was painted by Boult.
I like the late 1940s-early 1950s; many component manufacturers. On the above bike there are parts from Britain (GB bars, GB spearpoint stem, GB Superhood brake levers and GB Coureur calipers, Cyclo rear derailleur lever, Cyclo front wing nuts, Bluemels pump, Boa (Constrictor) pedals, Constrictor Boaloy rims, Blumfields hubs, Pennine CO2 pump, Brooks saddle (original)
French: Simplex bottle cage, Stronglight steel cranks, Huret cable front derailleur
Italian: Campagnolo Gran Sport rear derailleur and gear lever.
The bike owner had the opportunity to be measured for the frame, then chose the components to suit the purpose (and the available funds). With so many competing manufacturers there was real choice and innovation. Just like the British framebuilders.
The Boult served its original owner well over the 63 years he owned it. Well made and cherished.
10-30-17, 04:41 AM
#52
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Judging from my old Raleigh international, I doubt they were sober when they made it and I doubt they gave a crap at all about how long it lasted in service.
Really going to disagree with this post...the Brits are more frilly than the Italians in design - and covered a whole lot of slop in stove top enamel. And there's nothing sensible about putting steel rims on a bike with mud guards and what passed as brakes. Obviously any generalizations about a country's bikes fail when discussing specific builders, but, post club bikes, the Brits just made imitation cinellis equipped with Italian parts.
There's just as much romanticism with Brits as there is Italians on this site.
Really going to disagree with this post...the Brits are more frilly than the Italians in design - and covered a whole lot of slop in stove top enamel. And there's nothing sensible about putting steel rims on a bike with mud guards and what passed as brakes. Obviously any generalizations about a country's bikes fail when discussing specific builders, but, post club bikes, the Brits just made imitation cinellis equipped with Italian parts.
There's just as much romanticism with Brits as there is Italians on this site.
That same statement could be said for any Bike Company outside of Italy...
I have both a Cinelli SC and a Galmozzi Super Competizone which are both great Bikes but there's nothing Magical about them. I would just as soon ride my 50 Year old Holdsworth or the T.J. Quick I posted earlier.
It's not about the Country where they were made it's about who built them. A Raleigh international is a nice Bike but it's certainly not Top Tier when it comes to the best Bikes of Britian. I think every Bike should be judged on it's own merits.
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10-30-17, 06:40 AM
#53
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Good solid sensible Brits didn't go in for displays of sentiment, certainly not of unseemly passion for a bicycle. 
A restrained appreciation for good design, quality workmanship, durability and most certainly for real value were part of the culture that included bicycles as well as other manufactured goods "back when" in the UK.
A restrained appreciation for good design, quality workmanship, durability and most certainly for real value were part of the culture that included bicycles as well as other manufactured goods "back when" in the UK.
John.
10-30-17, 06:51 AM
#54
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"Brits just made imitation cinellis equipped with Italian parts."
That same statement could be said for any Bike Company outside of Italy...
I have both a Cinelli SC and a Galmozzi Super Competizone which are both great Bikes but there's nothing Magical about them. I would just as soon ride my 50 Year old Holdsworth or the T.J. Quick I posted earlier.
It's not about the Country where they were made it's about who built them. A Raleigh international is a nice Bike but it's certainly not Top Tier when it comes to the best Bikes of Britian. I think every Bike should be judged on it's own merits.
That same statement could be said for any Bike Company outside of Italy...
I have both a Cinelli SC and a Galmozzi Super Competizone which are both great Bikes but there's nothing Magical about them. I would just as soon ride my 50 Year old Holdsworth or the T.J. Quick I posted earlier.
It's not about the Country where they were made it's about who built them. A Raleigh international is a nice Bike but it's certainly not Top Tier when it comes to the best Bikes of Britian. I think every Bike should be judged on it's own merits.
I think I did a poor job communicating what I was trying to get across sort of assuming people know where I'm coming from; that post was meant more as a criticism of national generalizations than it was of the british biking industry. I'm a fan of many brits.
10-30-17, 07:14 AM
#55
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We romanticize everything European...I think our lack of deep roots/history, and our love of marketing/branding, makes us quick to mythologize. How's that for a generalization? Stick English in the title of The English Patient and obviously it must be sophisticated and important.
10-30-17, 07:14 AM
#56
~>~
10-30-17, 07:23 AM
#57
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It could be said for half of the brands in Italy too, and I agree that national generalizations are by nature meaningless.
I think I did a poor job communicating what I was trying to get across sort of assuming people know where I'm coming from; that post was meant more as a criticism of national generalizations than it was of the british biking industry. I'm a fan of many brits.
I think I did a poor job communicating what I was trying to get across sort of assuming people know where I'm coming from; that post was meant more as a criticism of national generalizations than it was of the british biking industry. I'm a fan of many brits.
10-30-17, 09:02 AM
#58
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Thanks for the info Bandera, the amount of miles Tommy Godwin put in a on a 3sp SA was insane! 75k in a year, wow. I have a friend I ride with on occasion that did seven centuries (plus regular rides) so far this month, and knowing him will squeeze in one more. He is cancer survivor in his mid 50s and a pulling machine that can't get enough. Averages 15-20k the last few years and I thought that was crazy. But I can't image 240 miles a day or whatever that was.
10-30-17, 03:15 PM
#59
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Tommy Godwin also set the 100,000 mi record continuing that same ride in 500 days, 35 days less than the previous record, on a Raleigh no less and both records stand to this day I believe, how's that for romanticisim. 
They should, but sentiment is part of old bikes and why many have them. The backstory, builder and country of origin play a part and Italians were more associated with top tier race bikes, riders and of course Campagnolo. In the last century anyway. I got a better feel for English now. I forgot about SBDU and it's following as well.
Thanks for the info Bandera, the amount of miles Tommy Godwin put in a on a 3sp SA was insane! 75k in a year, wow. I have a friend I ride with on occasion that did seven centuries (plus regular rides) so far this month, and knowing him will squeeze in one more. He is cancer survivor in his mid 50s and a pulling machine that can't get enough. Averages 15-20k the last few years and I thought that was crazy. But I can't image 240 miles a day or whatever that was.
Thanks for the info Bandera, the amount of miles Tommy Godwin put in a on a 3sp SA was insane! 75k in a year, wow. I have a friend I ride with on occasion that did seven centuries (plus regular rides) so far this month, and knowing him will squeeze in one more. He is cancer survivor in his mid 50s and a pulling machine that can't get enough. Averages 15-20k the last few years and I thought that was crazy. But I can't image 240 miles a day or whatever that was.
Last edited by merziac; 10-30-17 at 03:44 PM.
10-30-17, 03:34 PM
#60
~>~
To stick with something that I do know, having been there at the time, the US National Road Race Championships were won in 1968, 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1975 by John Howard (4X) and John Allis riding Raleigh Professionals built by Carlton in the UK.
-Bandera
-Bandera
10-30-17, 03:43 PM
#61
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And there you have it, that's what i'm talkin about, Raleighs rock, plain and simple, whether it was 1939 or 1968, they got it done. 
10-30-17, 07:28 PM
#62
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No, I think Godwin's record fell earlier this year: Google "Amanda Coker."
10-30-17, 07:37 PM
#63
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Even so that was a helluva run, took almost 80 years of technology to catch him.
And while we're at it this is highly subjective, closed course, mostly flat albeit windy, latest modern technology, nutrition, etc. realistically apples and oranges at the end of the day. Still an extraordinary feat on both counts. Lets see if she goes after the 100k.
And while we're at it this is highly subjective, closed course, mostly flat albeit windy, latest modern technology, nutrition, etc. realistically apples and oranges at the end of the day. Still an extraordinary feat on both counts. Lets see if she goes after the 100k.
Last edited by merziac; 10-30-17 at 07:47 PM.
10-31-17, 09:17 AM
#64
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Freddie Grubb
I'm building a circa 1954 Freddie Grubb, bought the derelict frame at an auction.
Mercian Cycles (Derby) are restoring and refinishing the frame for me and making a few mods to suit campy parts.
mercian make some stunning road and track bikes, not sure where else you could buy a steel tailor made frame today. I believe their waiting list is 2 years.
Mercian Cycles (Derby) are restoring and refinishing the frame for me and making a few mods to suit campy parts.
mercian make some stunning road and track bikes, not sure where else you could buy a steel tailor made frame today. I believe their waiting list is 2 years.
10-31-17, 10:53 AM
#65
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10-31-17, 02:31 PM
#67
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10-31-17, 06:03 PM
#70
~>~
Nicely restored, the early MK Professionals are not common.
It's interesting to see how quickly the Mks evolved in production from the wrap-over stays, room for mudguards w/ eyelets, cable-stops & loop for centerpulls to the Victor fast back stays, shorter wheelbase, higher BB, no accommodation for mudguards and the then de rigeur Campag sidepulls of my '74 MKIV.
Racing does improve the breed and the Carlton built Pros were good enough to win multiple US National Championships by the CRC of A boys and remain one of my favorite racing bikes to this day.
-Bandera
It's interesting to see how quickly the Mks evolved in production from the wrap-over stays, room for mudguards w/ eyelets, cable-stops & loop for centerpulls to the Victor fast back stays, shorter wheelbase, higher BB, no accommodation for mudguards and the then de rigeur Campag sidepulls of my '74 MKIV.
Racing does improve the breed and the Carlton built Pros were good enough to win multiple US National Championships by the CRC of A boys and remain one of my favorite racing bikes to this day.
-Bandera
11-01-17, 05:33 PM
#71
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Not that I'm any sort of connoisseur, but I really dig the Jack Taylors. Whether it's fillet brazed or lugged- I love the box lining and the Mondrian logos.
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11-02-17, 05:47 PM
#72
Senior Member
Raleigh Team Professional at the top and then it doesn't matter after that.
01-26-22, 12:08 PM
#74
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Anyone here know English Frame builders?
I was hoping to find someone on this thread that knows English frame builder well enough to identify the builder of this frame?
The seat lug looks like a very nicely filed Bertin (but Bertin did not do this) The lugs could be Oscar Egg lugs and frame treatments say early 1960's date but the water bottle bosses say 1970's (possibly added later?) The serial number reads like some of the Bertin Frames with a 1973 date. The Lamp Boss on the fork is so very clearly English. Lots of contradictions for me.
.... I need some high grade English frame informed help here..
The seat lug looks like a very nicely filed Bertin (but Bertin did not do this) The lugs could be Oscar Egg lugs and frame treatments say early 1960's date but the water bottle bosses say 1970's (possibly added later?) The serial number reads like some of the Bertin Frames with a 1973 date. The Lamp Boss on the fork is so very clearly English. Lots of contradictions for me.
.... I need some high grade English frame informed help here..
01-26-22, 12:22 PM
#75
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That's pretty cool and looks french but for the lamp mount. As you say contradictions, like the utilitarian fork crown and the elegant seat cluster. It's a vintage Hunqapiller and made for a big boy.
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