bike_galpal

EDIT: in the thread title, i used the word "discerning" when i meant "differentiating"

this has turned in to a "recommend me a cool frame" which is fine but i want to be clear that i am NOT looking for a frame with "hipster" factor. i do like flashy and fancy stuff. however my thread title was concerned with determining when something is overpriced because it has an italian name, chrome or other "hipster coveted" details.... i realize now that's kind of a smaller question compared to being able to determine quality.

WHAT DO I WANT: i want a road frame, for long rides and occasional aggressive riding in Oakland. i would like to set it up with modern 8+ speed brifters. i do have other bikes to use for grocery runs and other purposes. i'd like a vintage lugged steel frame, and i'm not interested in frames with a lot of red, orange or yellow.

i've also become interested in vintage aluminum frames if anyone can provide some resources or reading about the ride quality and other info about these bikes.

--- ORIGINAL POST ---

Hey bike forumers...

i'm shopping for a frame, and i've been told to "reach higher". aesthetics are important to me, but I'm definitely not settling for less than double butted cromoly. i guess i'm wondering, how much better does it really get?

more specifically, if you i'm looking at 2 lugged steel frames with comparable tubesets (for example Columbus SL and Tange #2) ..... what more should i care about???

i do of course know that frames are made for different purposes, and i should figure out what geometry etc i want, also there is all the basic compatibility stuff. i'm looking at this from a perspective of sheer quality. i know people pay way too much for some italian frames. i want to know, is there a quality related reason to spend significantly more?

another specific question: branded tubesets like Fuji double butted cromoly, Bridgestone triple butted cromoly, how do these compare to tange, columbus etc? is that simply somewhat of an unknown?

i want something special, but if i like it and make it mine it will be special to me. i'm currently looking at an 86 bridgestone 400 for 150 (complete bike). can you convince me to spend more?

this paint job has me considering it, yet its 531 which seems a little behind triple butted cromoly.


i think more realistically i'd drop the cash on something like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NOS....c100009.m1982

but is it really worth 250$ more?

qcpmsame 

A shout out for a Tommasini frame, if you can find one that isn't priced out of reach. I watched ebay for mine, an '86 Prestige, up for auction, that no one had bid on with two days left, surprisingly to me. Bid for the listed starting price of $199.00 and won it. You'd probably like it, its the Pink pearlescent colourway.

Bill

merziac

Short answer is yes it can be worth a lot more, HOWEVER you have to be the judge. A very well made high quality frame can put the biggest grin on your face that you have ever had. Sometimes it has to grow on you, sometimes not. It is very hard to quantify, one of my favorite analogy's is vinyl records compared to cd's on a very high quality stereo system, records have "soul", cd's not only do not have soul but are also flat in comparison. It can be instantaneous in a big way if enough things lineup. I would encourage you to find some high quality vintage rides to test and find a custom builder that has something you can test as well.

Colnago Mixte

That Peugot is definitely a gem.

I would dial in my size if you haven't already. A great frame in the wrong size can cancel out every advantage it would otherwise offer.

I would also do as much studying as possible and start looking around, with a reasonable budget in mind. Hold out for something that meets all your requirements, that you really like, and when you do, nobody will need to talk you into it, you'll know it's right.

Letting someone talk you into buying this frame over another, is exactly what you don't need, I would think, if you took the time to study up on the subject and have a pretty good idea of what you want. A bike ought to be an expression of you, not what you think someone else would like. YMMV.

Apologies for the unsolicited advice.

norcalmike

Im a sucker for Pink and or purple bikes. I don't know why.
I saw one of those Peugeots on CL a while back in mint condition. They wanted a lot though plus shipping

Salamandrine 

The Peugeot at first glance appears to be the better frame, but I don't know the particular specs of that bike.

First of all "triple butted" is 98% marketing. It makes next to zero functional difference, but was a good way to make your bike sound better in the 80s and early 90s. There was also quadruple butted. Really, any top of the line seamless drawn double butted cromoly tubing (SL/SP/#1/#2 etc) or manganese/moly (531) is going to be functionally equivalent - if all else is equal.

Be careful though, as sometimes the stays and forks might be made of cheaper tubes. And 531 comes in straight or double butted. So a cheap frame might be 3 main frame tube straight gauge 531, and the rest of the bike hi ten steel. A top frame will be 531 double butted, frame, fork and stays. To the newbie they're both 531 frames, but one is a much better frame.

Columbus Gara is straight gauge chromoly. Nothing wrong with it, but it isn't as good or worth as much as their top of the line tubesets.

BTW Columbus SP is comparable to Tange #2. SL is closer to Tange #1. Both are the same quality, but SP and #2 are one gauge thicker. Stiffer and stronger but a little heavier.

crank_addict

Do you have the size nailed down? The older era of high end bikes are nothing to do with small, med. and large compact jam it to you dealer in stock.

If this is to your size, I'd go all chips in-
Zunow Z1 frameset

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zunow-Z-1-5...YAAOSwICpZ7VCh

Proprietary Zunow tubes made by Tange. Trited (triple butted). TT is called Ditchex (note the cable gutter). The seat tube transitions from round at the top to oval at the BB shell. Pentagla chainstays. Cast lugs are a work of art. Dropous on this one are Campy, but they also used Columbus. Check out the details / brake bridge, fork crown, tangs, bridging on that awesome bottom bracket. This particular frame looks from the original shop in Osaka.

Salamandrine 

Nice find! That's a real beauty. It's nowhere near my size, and I'm not in the market for a pink bike, but if I was, that would be it. That's a top end frame from IMO the apex period of traditional lugged steel racing frame building.

Aubergine 

I’ll be blunt. The best riding bikes I have are made with 531 tubing. I also have bikes with Columbus SL, SP, and KL, TruTemper, Tange 2, various varieties of Chromoly, and of course Peugeot’s “cadre allégé” and Carbolite tubing. They can make nice bikes with all of those metals, but 531 is magical.

Kactus

I'm with you. I've had bikes with SP, SLX and Tange 2 and find 531 much more to my liking. All 4 of my current bikes are 531.

JohnDThompson 

The concern I'd have with that Peugeot is not the tubing, but rather the possibility that the frame may have metric bottom bracket and steer tube thread, for which it may be problematic to find compatible components.

Salamandrine 

I think if you're feeling something different in a 531 bike vs say SL, it has more to do with the geometry and the builder, not the tubing. The physical properties of the tubing are nearly identical. 531 tubesets had slightly different shaped and proportioned chain and seat stays than Columbus. That may be what you are feeling. I have a slight preference for Columbus SL/SP, if all else is the same, mostly because I like the fat oval chainstays.

Bigger changes happened when heat treated and OS tubesets were introduced in the 90s.

One thing that's kind of cool about 531 is that it turns this kind of brown color when exposed, instead of rusting like 4130 type alloys.

pcb 

Ultimately this can become "princess & the pea" territory, and you'll only know how discerning you are regarding frame tubing after riding a lot of different frames/tubing. Your size, weight, fitness level, intended distances/speeds and whether or not you'll use any bags all factor in as well. I find that, for myself, the tubing sizes/gauges, frame geometry and builder's skill matter more than the tubing brand/type. I'm not ultra-discerning, just about everything I ride feels pretty good after a few blocks, but I do generally find higher-end frames ride better for me than lower-end/production frames.

And if we're talking lugged steel, whether I'm riding or standing still I'd much rather be looking at finely-crafted metalwork than mid-level factory production. Part of the ride quality is what I'm feeling through the tires, wheels and frame. Another part is what synapses fire in my brain when I'm checking out the lugs and file/torch work. Some of what you get from "better tubing" might be a nicer ride due to the better tubing itself. But you're also getting a frame that has different, usually more performance-oriented design parameters, better aesthetics and less robotic production. Once you get into frames from smaller-volume builders, you're often getting more thoughtful designs and more carefully-built/finished frames. You can't often get that for $100, but if you're thorough and sometimes lucky it often doesn't cost a lot.

The BS400 you're looking at was designed by talented engineers and built to high quality standards. But it was also built & equipped to a medium-low price point, and BS probably forecast selling many thousand units. That makes the target rider a broad audience, with the product engineers anticipating a large percentage of beginning riders, or intermediate riders stepping up from an entry-level bike. There's a limit to how light they'd build the frame, and the geometry may emphasize stability over quick, nimble handling. Component choices are also tied to price points, especially important when it comes to tires, wheels & saddles.

Better tubing means higher price points, fewer units, fewer and generally more-discerning target buyers, and, often, more competitors. Whatever year your BS400 was made, there were a lot more builders/mfrs offering $1k+ bikes than there were offering $300 bikes. So just about everything had to get better, lighter, sleeker, faster, groovier. For me, that's where the fun starts.

Bianchigirll 

As already stated size is the most important factor. A 23" lowend tre tubi ChroMoly with Mangalloy stays may feel and ride bettter simply because the TT it half anch shorter and the frame weighs a thrid of a pound more than a 59cm full SL frameset

I once had the opportunity to use one of our teams SL Pinerello frames and built it with what I had from broken bike. Maybe it was because it was early season and I was out of shape or maybe the frame was just really beat but I hated the ride. I pretty much hung it up and just rode my Bianchi with the chromo/mangalloy mix frame since it felt better. frankly as a a uh um, what's that cute term they use in that clyde forum? OH that's right "Athena" rider I love my Columbus MAX frames but others here will poo poo them as heavy and too stiff.

one of the nice things about bikes it if you don't like it you can always pass it along. Trying different ones to see how they ride is IMHO half of the fun of collecting and riding vintage bikes.

3alarmer 

.
... already said that double butted 531 is fine, and that triple and quadruple butting of frame tubing is of doubtful benefit.

Also, that looks to me like a pretty nice Peugeot frame (but as John Thompson suggests, check the threading for component availability. I know Velo Orange sells a reasonably priced French thread BB, but I'm uncertain about headsets...there must be something still around if you shop on Amazon.Fr).

However, in your title you mention hipster cool factor. Vertical dropouts complicate your life if your vision of the finished bicycle is a fixed gear or single speed. It means you need to add a chain tensioner into the build, and it always looks a little fugly.

Bikerider007

I kind of look at things as big picture when it comes to tubing. First, 531 and SL are good classic tubing. Full frame preferred, double butted, not tre (3) or main tube only.

If you are looking at Japanese preferences I personally would want Ishiwata or Tange 1. Italian-SL, English-531, French 531 or Vitus. There are others out there but those are my preferences.

Oh yea, French bikes are typically french threaded. I have multiple bikes and sometimes pick something up for parts or because I know it would swap well with another bike and make them both complete/original. So I don't get into French. Again, my opinion. Nothing against French bikes and I'm sure if I was French I would love them as they have some nice bikes, especially their Randonneur bikes and builders.

Piff 

In my opinion, buy the 400. Futz around with it, customize it, figure out what you want from a bike. It's doubtful you'll know the sort of frame you truly want on your first try.

No reason to spend big bucks on building up a frame to realize it's not for you.

Salamandrine 

^^^ ya know yer right.

The Bridgestone 400 is actually a very nice bike. For $150 I'd start there, unless the OP already intends to race and plans to train 400 miles a week or whatever. It's good for anything a normal recreational rider might do.

Bandera

No idea how to discern the relevant characteristics that define a "cool/hipster" factor but selecting the correct frame size, as has been mentioned more than once, is the #1 criteria in buying any bicycle frame new or old.

Any high quality butted steel frame-set built from Tange, Ishiwata, Reynolds, Columbus or Vitus will be a perfectly fine riding machine if it is a size and design that meets your requirements. Race bikes don't carry extraneous loads with grace, touring bikes are not optimal for sprinting. Pick one that meets your needs, or hipness.

The search for a C&V machine that fits and meets requirements can be a time consuming project that is a matter of luck dogging CL, yard sales, old bike shops and networking. Small/tall frame-sets are/were more rare and may require an extensive search.
Specific national origin, tubing type, condition, builder or color can make for a very protracted but rewarding search .

Good luck,

-Bandera

3alarmer 

.
...I've had trouble with threads like this ever since I saw the Colnago downtown that had been turned into an upright coffee cruiser.
Worst bike idea ever. However, this electric conversion made me rethink that.

Aubergine 

The Peugeot pictured almost surely has “standard” threads and tubing sizes. My 1984 Peugeot has English BB threads but still used French steerer and seatpost sizes. The pictured Peugeot is several years newer than mine, and likely had changed to all standard threads by then.

In any case, French threaded headsets and bottom brackets are still easy to find on line. No need to be concerned about them. The hardest bits to find are aluminum seatposts in the oddball French sizes! But even those can be found.

bike_galpal

hahaha, don't worry, i'm not gonna do that. I've had a tentative plan to put 6400 brifters and a carbon fork on something vintage but whatever i do i usually know what's...... bad, and would never do that to something really nice.

squirtdad

go with the frame that fits the best and look you like the most.

there is no magical "best" tubing, there is tubing that works for your size, bike size and riding. as an example Columbus SLX may be too stiff for a lightweight

Many custom guys are not specific about tubing....and use a mix to get the result they like

there was was a ride comparison between bikes made from different columbus tubing made into identical frames by the same builder. The ride differences were not huge

https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Articles/SteelShootOut.pdf

bike_galpal

i've never bought a new bike lol... not my size but thank you for this, that's incredible.

bike_galpal

I want to thank everyone for your input, i really appreciate it. I'm getting that frame tubing (as long as it's cromoly or 531) is not something i should worry about too much in itself, but there is some element of association e. g. frames made of Columbus SLX are very rarely going to be badly made frames. @Salamandrine is this a school of thought you endorse at all?

this has me curious. maybe i should mention that i'm 6ft and 135 lbs. does that mean i'm more prone to noticing/feeling certain things?

and @pcb i really appreciated your reply. thinking about that and @merziac your reply as well, i understand that i'm not really a "bike audiophile" yet so to speak. i don't really know enough to know what would be ideal for me. i would call myself an experienced wrench and kind of a c&v enthusiast but i pretty much only ride my Swobo.