Help me make a cheat sheet
 

Okay, here's the situation. A guy who has been a great help to me in finding old bikes--he's found me a Peugeot Triathlon, a Panasonic Touring Deluxe, and the Torpado in the "catch of the day" thread, plus he called me about a motobecane this morning-- asked me to compile a short cheat sheet for vintage stuff to look for. Since the guy has been a real aid in my hunts-- he works over the entire state and visits thrifts searching for golf clubs and cameras, and has taken to tiping me off on bikes, I have undertaken to do so. Figure it's worth my while. I told him I probably couldn't make a short cheat sheet on bike brands; ther are just too many of them and you have to know the quality variations between, say, a PX10 and an AO8, or various Bianchis. Thought I'd make a list of some components and tubing types for him to look for. It's gotta be short, it's going in his wallet.

My tenative list:
Reynolds 531,753,853
Columbus SL, SLX
Ishiwata 019,022
Tange 1

Components:
Shimano 600, Ultegra, Dura-Ace
Campagnolo: Any
Stronglight: any crank with a star shaped spider

Some of the other, more obscure stuff, I have to leave out. He's not going to know what a Simplex retrofriction shifter or a Berethet pedal looks like, for instance, probably won't be able to spot a lot of stuff I might buy a frame or bike for (yes, I've bought a bike for one part before). But the guy is a great source and a nice guy besides, so I'd like to hear any additions/subtractions you have for the cheat sheet. Try to keep it to things a non-expert could spot--frame tubing stickers, component groups, etc.

Here's what I came up with for my grandsons: look for axle adjusting screws & or forged rear dropouts that have threaded holes for axle adjusting screws. If the bike has those, its worth checking out further for ornate lugs, components, size & fit. Don

Brooks saddle with good leather.

I'd add Zeus to the components, even though some folks don't like 'em. Most of their stuff was pretty decent quality.

Chater-Lea and Mavic for sure; maybe Magistroni, Williams, Phil Wood, Hi-E, Bullseye, O.M.A.S., Modolo, Ambrosio, ttt, Cinelli, GB, Brooks...?

Anything that says Rene Herse.

Pogue - a few ideas:

Anything else that's steel and "double butted", "triple butted", "quad butted" of "fully butted". (This will help prevent him passing over some nice Japanese bikes).

Anything that says "Campagnolo".

In general, anything with tires that use Presta valves.

3-speed (or more) hubs or Dyno wheels.

Designed cut-outs in the bottom bracket.

and anything that sounds italian. Especially derosa, cinelli, and masi.

Quad butted? Is that like a monkey with four @sses?

I'd check for pics online and print out what I'm talking about---like a photo showing the logo on TA chainrings.

Exactly! And if the monkey is a decent rider, that's about all we'll see of him ... until he drops us. :D

Ooh, I'd hate to shop for Lycra if I were that monkey!

I am not sure I agree with all of the advice. It sounds like you are looking to purchase for a good resell. If so - here are my recommendations on road bikes.

Anything Campy I don't agree with. Not all Campy collectible or even desirable.Campy Record is new top-of-line. For vintage, if it's not Campy NR or SR - or in certain cases maybe Victory - then it's not very desirable. Some older Campy like Valentino is also OK - but for 70s-80s I would stick with NR or SR.

Modolo, Universal, and Mavic are lesser-quality brakes than Campy NR or SR. Still - some really good bikes came with Universal or Weimann brakes. If the bike is all Campy NR or SR including cranks, headset, bb, pedals, and derailleurs then perhaps it originally came with other brakes - but if they are found on a bike you should note the brakes are much less quality (and a lot less expensive) than Campy NR/SR.

Anything that sounds Italian?? No not really. Univegas and some other so-called Italian bikes are really not very valuable. A lot of "Italian" names go unsold on eBay or sell for just a few dollars.

Reynolds 531 or Columbus SL or SLX for vintage bikes. Anthing else is not very desirable. Reynolds 853 for more modern bikes. Anything else is not worth it. Tange or Ishiwata??? No way.

Anything with Presta valves? There's a lot of pure junky old bikes with presta. This in no way indicates a good bike to buy.

Lugged and especially pretty or pointy lugs indicate good workmanship and helps resell the bike. But a fancy cutout in bb indicates nothing about the value of a bike. Forged Campy dropouts are also a good indicator of a good bike - moreso than "anything that sounds Italian".

A Brooks saddle in good condition is a great asset.

I'd stay away from any Simplex, especially the plasitc 70's stuff.

Shimano 600 in ornate "Arabesque" style looks good but is less valuable than the Campy NR/SR counterparts.

Bottom line for me - lugged steel Reynolds 531 or Columbus SLX with Campy dropouts, and all Campy NR or SR including brakes for a vintage 70-80's ride. For a more modern 90's or newer same steel or else Reynolds 853, and DuraAce or Ultegra.

Mark,

Your objections are certainly valid, but there are a few points here I think you might be missing.

First, Pogue's friend is scouting for bikes for him, not purchasing them (if I'm understanding correctly). If I were in that position, I would rather get told about a few dogs than miss out on the really good one that I wasn't told about because the Reynolds stickers were worn off.

Second, Pogue rarely pays more than $20.00 (quite often much less than that) for his acquisitions. Even a Schwinn Varsity is worth that if it's in really good condition.

Three, we're just brainstorming. Pogue knows as much about good bicycles (if not more) as nearly any of us. No doubt he'll go through the exercise of weighing the pros and cons of the suggestions that we're making and figure out what makes sense to put on that little 3x5 card he's going to hand to his friend.

Z

Just re-read post. I don't entirely agree with your assessment of all non Columbus/Reynolds frames being junk. I'd take my Fuji's double-butted chrome moly frame (with no indication of manufacturer) over my Super Course's 531 main triangle any day. To say that the best Japanese tubing (and likewise the best Tange tubing) is inferior to Reynolds and Columbus tubing tells me you've never ridden them.

Thanks all! Mark, the prices we're paying are generally pretty low, so I kept the Japanese tubing in the list. My experience with it is it has an excellent ride, and about here, the most likely place we'll see Ishiwata is the lower-end early Treks, which were not really lower-end frames. And Bridgestones, which are great bikes also. If someone comes to me looking for a good older road bike, I don't hesitate to put them on a Japanese bike, especially the ones from the 80s.

I didn't put any bicycle brands on the list. For example, a Rene Herse is likely to have 531 and a decent leather saddle. Thus, it's already on the list in an oblique way. Since the cheat sheet had to be short (to fit in a wallet) a lot got left out-- obviously, a picture guide would have been great, but too large. Although this fellow is very smart, he's not going to know the difference between various Simplex mechs without some study, where I'd be all over a set of Super LJs like stink on... . But that's okay, he's sharp and a good resource.

Given what we pay, any Campy is likely a bargin; I've found stuff like Nuovo Tipo and even (gulp) Gran Turismo will sell just off the Campy mystique, should I sell it. The 600 Arabesque is my fave Shimano group (to heck with resale value), so it stays, too. But the profit motivation is secondary at best here. Some of the bikes I buy are simply fixed up and given away or sold at the cost I found them at, some are resales, some go into my stable. It's not a business, it's a hobby.

This gentleman does know I pay a bit more for bigger frames. I know this flies in the face of all common sense, but it's the size I ride. I'll pay more for a bike for me. Why, I paid the equivalent of two shiny new Roadmaster Mt Furys for a Austro Daimler recently :).

I have to agree with Zorro and Pogue...

Mark, it sounds like you're talking about "top shelf" bikes. If you read this forum very often, you'll realize that what you might call "junk" actually describes what most of us ride. I think we all receive great joy in rescuing a bike (even a less-than-stellar one) from oblivion and putting it back on the road. It's even more fun when you can fix up a $10 bike, then give it to a friend or someone who really needs a decent bike.

Pogue's cheat sheet is very similar to the one that I gave my father. My dad is a farmer who frequently searches the local recycling centers for metal to use in his welding shop on the farm. While he's at it, he keeps an eye out for bikes. Since he knows absolutely nothing about bikes, I've trained him to look for anything that sounds Italian or Japanese, leather seats, "curly" handlebars, etc. When he gets a hit, then I can go and have a look and evaluate the bike. If it's a clunker, then we haul it back to the recycling center.

Just because a bike doesn't have top quality components and the best possible tubing, doesn't mean that it's not worth having. I still love to ride my 1981 Schwinn World... and it wouldn't go for three bucks at the Salvation Army store.

Well, I never said any other steel frames were junk - I think I said "Reynolds 531 or Columbus SL or SLX for vintage bikes. Anthing else is not very desirable. Reynolds 853 for more modern bikes. Anything else is not worth it. Tange or Ishiwata??? No way." For resell purposes, Reynolds 531 or SL/SLX are the way to go - anything else has a much lower resell value. I don't think they are junk - they just don't hold the same value. If you're on eBay and you see Tange or Ishiwata tubing - that's not really an asset for selling the bike the same way 531 or SL/SLX is - I never equated this to riding - only to resell value.

Again - I was speaking about reselling bikes and what to buy that is the best investment for a resell. Heck - I'm looking for a 1970's UO-8 Peugeot and Schwinn racer because I had both those bikes when I was a kid. I'd pay $100 bucks for either one in good condition because of the nostalgia and personal value. But I would not look twice at a Tange frame with Simplex components. The audience and market for 531 and Sl/SLX frames is probably 1000x the market for anything else. If I am going to buy a bike for reselling I want a bike 1000 people are interested in, not just 1 or 2. It's not a question of junk or not - it's a question of size of market and potential buyers.

As far as junk I did say Presta valves don't indicate anything - There's a lot of pure junky old bikes with presta.

Point taken.


True enough, but turn it around - most bicycles that are desireable have them. Unless you're into Schwinn's or old 3-speeds, you can walk past most anything with Schraeder valves.

Mark, your points about 531/SL are well taken. Certainly most of the best bikes $ wise are made of those two. I'm not sure what the market is around where you are for old bikes, but 35-50$ is top end around here in a thrift or auction, the auctions being lower. I kinda think your area may be higher than mine-- $100 is awful high for a UO8, the last few I have bought ranged from $0.75 to 5$, but I know from hanging out on this board 100 clams is a reasonable asking price in some areas. At 35$, a bike with Ishiwata 022 is a bargin, and I can easily make it back, if I should choose to. However, some brands, like Treks and Bridgestones, have pretty good resale value irregardless of the tubing... resale value is a tricky thing indeed. There's enough odd factors in there to make it hard to anticipate. These would include marquee, tubing, age, components, condition, frame size, and a host of other small factors (Some Bridgestones are worth more because of the Petersen connection, for instance). My idea with the list was to try to get in as many quality rides as possible, and miss most of the junk. Not the easiest task, given the convergence of so many factors (and I left out Suntour Superbe, I need to drop that on the list next time I see the fellow). I have sold bikes with both Tange and Ishiwata, and in every case, there were several people interested, judging by ebay bids. In fact, the last Tange I sold, a Panasonic DX5000 frame, went for more than some of the 531 bikes I've unloaded in the past. It was a real beauty of a frame, tho.