Stuck Cotter Pin - Idea Help Sought
12-23-17, 11:02 PM
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Pigseye
Posts: 577
Bikes: Raleigh Sports
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by noglider
I've never heard this. What special property does a brass hammer have?
It surly can move steel due to its mass which is greater than steel.
In general a cubic foot of steel weighs approx. 575 pounds, in comparison to a cubic foot of brass or copper which weighs out at no less than aprox. 625 lb per cu. ft.
Do the math.
brass/copper is soft but 50 lbs. says something is gonna move, just in a lesser way.
Aluminum in comparison weighs 175 lbs per cu. ft.
They do make plastsic dead blow hammers that cause alomst nil destructive behavior to anything but the plastic face unless you are striking plastic.
The end game here is not to F/U the chrome.
Last edited by johnnyspaghetti; 12-24-17 at 08:45 AM.
12-24-17, 01:23 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Pigseye
Posts: 577
Bikes: Raleigh Sports
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...I don't think you'll have much luck riding it off. A cotter, stuck like you describe it, is seated in there well. All the nut does is keep it snugged down, and you've accomplished an alternative to that by bending it.
That said, drilling one out is not a big deal, just PIA, If you can, cut it off even with the crank arm at the threaded end, then center punch it to get a starting point for your drill, Choose a drill bit that is slightly smaller than the cotter itself, and drill it down far enough that you have a nice empty hole to seat a drift or pin punch with an end that is a litle smaller than the hole. Then drip in some ATF/acetone mix on both ends of the cotter, give it a chance to wick in there, and whale on the punch with the crank arm supported on something like a pipe or a notched 2X4 that is supported on a solid surface like a concrete floor. The pin itself is much softer than the the crank arm or the spindle, and you don't really need to go past the spindle intersection with the cotter anyway. Just be careful not to bugger up the hole in the crank arm, which is clearly visible.
I have done six or ten of them this way. LIke I said, PIA, but not all that difficult once you resign yourself to it as the solution.
As a bonus, you can turn the remains of the cotter into a lavalier or a keychain fob.
...I don't think you'll have much luck riding it off. A cotter, stuck like you describe it, is seated in there well. All the nut does is keep it snugged down, and you've accomplished an alternative to that by bending it.
That said, drilling one out is not a big deal, just PIA, If you can, cut it off even with the crank arm at the threaded end, then center punch it to get a starting point for your drill, Choose a drill bit that is slightly smaller than the cotter itself, and drill it down far enough that you have a nice empty hole to seat a drift or pin punch with an end that is a litle smaller than the hole. Then drip in some ATF/acetone mix on both ends of the cotter, give it a chance to wick in there, and whale on the punch with the crank arm supported on something like a pipe or a notched 2X4 that is supported on a solid surface like a concrete floor. The pin itself is much softer than the the crank arm or the spindle, and you don't really need to go past the spindle intersection with the cotter anyway. Just be careful not to bugger up the hole in the crank arm, which is clearly visible.
I have done six or ten of them this way. LIke I said, PIA, but not all that difficult once you resign yourself to it as the solution.
As a bonus, you can turn the remains of the cotter into a lavalier or a keychain fob.
12-24-17, 05:27 AM
#28
Passista
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,431
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaņa pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 811 Post(s)
Liked 561 Times
in
308 Posts
I used a big bench vise with a socket on the most stubborn cotter I had to deal with and it worked. Needed a helper to hold the bike though.
12-24-17, 10:50 AM
#29
Senior Member
Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti
Why would they engineer a weak threaded fastener to hold it in ? Explain please
Just like a square taper crank, the nut/bolt only serves to keep the wedge in place--the friction of the wedge itself provides the connection.
There are numerous examples of tapered fasteners/joins elsewhere (old nails, for one, drill/lathe chucks, etc) that operate in a similar manner, if not an exact copy.
12-24-17, 12:47 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Posts: 17,415
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 442 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
17 Posts
They're cotter pins in the UK. In the US they're called cotters. I differentiates them from pins that keep nuts from loosening.
I've never tried to remove or install a cotter with anything but a press. It has always made the job simple and quick.
I've never tried to remove or install a cotter with anything but a press. It has always made the job simple and quick.
12-24-17, 03:31 PM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 4,280
Bikes: Indeed!
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1297 Post(s)
Liked 2,625 Times
in
878 Posts
Originally Posted by Grand Bois
They're cotter pins in the UK. In the US they're called cotters. I differentiates them from pins that keep nuts from loosening.
I've never tried to remove or install a cotter with anything but a press. It has always made the job simple and quick.
I've never tried to remove or install a cotter with anything but a press. It has always made the job simple and quick.
In the early seventies I worked for a bike shop that rented hundreds of English 3-speeds to Stanford students. Only one in fifty or so cotters presented a removal problem, but the ones that did made up in aggravation for their small number. For many years afterwords I suffered Post Cotter Psychic Distress Syndrome. In fact, come to think of it, I haven't worked on a bike with cotters since then.
Brent
12-24-17, 03:39 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,382
Mentioned: 441 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3372 Post(s)
Liked 5,069 Times
in
2,103 Posts
Originally Posted by obrentharris
In the early seventies I worked for a bike shop that rented hundreds of English 3-speeds to Stanford students. Only one in fifty or so cotters presented a removal problem, but the ones that did made up in aggravation for their small number. For many years afterwords I suffered Post Cotter Psychic Distress Syndrome. In fact, come to think of it, I haven't worked on a bike with cotters since then.
Brent
Brent
12-24-17, 03:56 PM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 4,280
Bikes: Indeed!
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1297 Post(s)
Liked 2,625 Times
in
878 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner
Brent, any chance that shop was Campus Bike? I worked at its California Ave location from 1986-1990.
Stanford Bike Coop, on University Avenue towards the bottom of the business district. I think he had closed up shop by the end of the seventies.
Besides renting used bikes to Stanford students this shop had one other distinct peculiarity:
At that time the Macy's department stores still had a sporting goods department and still sold bicycles. Twice a year they would run a trade-in promotion. Customers could trade in any old bike for a $10 discount on any new bike. My employer bought all of those trade-in bikes from Northern California for $5 each. He would haul them by the trailer-load to the shop where they would reside in a huge tangled pile, hundreds of them, at one end of our shop. During the winter months we would slowly work our way through the pile, refurbishing what we could for sale or rent. Fortunately for us this all took place before there were many of the really junky "Free Spirit" department store bikes being traded in. The pile of bikes was like something from a cheap horror movie: It just kept growing and growing no matter how fast we tried to reduce its size. When it got so large that it threatened to push the sales floor and the work stations right out the front door my boss began renting warehouses in East Palo Alto to store the overflow! I'm glad Macy's finally stopped that promotion or that pile would have eventually taken over the world.
Brent
12-24-17, 05:42 PM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,382
Mentioned: 441 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3372 Post(s)
Liked 5,069 Times
in
2,103 Posts
Originally Posted by obrentharris
Neil,
Stanford Bike Coop, on University Avenue towards the bottom of the business district. I think he had closed up shop by the end of the seventies.
Besides renting used bikes to Stanford students this shop had one other distinct peculiarity:
At that time the Macy's department stores still had a sporting goods department and still sold bicycles. Twice a year they would run a trade-in promotion. Customers could trade in any old bike for a $10 discount on any new bike. My employer bought all of those trade-in bikes from Northern California for $5 each. He would haul them by the trailer-load to the shop where they would reside in a huge tangled pile, hundreds of them, at one end of our shop. During the winter months we would slowly work our way through the pile, refurbishing what we could for sale or rent. Fortunately for us this all took place before there were many of the really junky "Free Spirit" department store bikes being traded in. The pile of bikes was like something from a cheap horror movie: It just kept growing and growing no matter how fast we tried to reduce its size. When it got so large that it threatened to push the sales floor and the work stations right out the front door my boss began renting warehouses in East Palo Alto to store the overflow! I'm glad Macy's finally stopped that promotion or that pile would have eventually taken over the world.
Brent
Stanford Bike Coop, on University Avenue towards the bottom of the business district. I think he had closed up shop by the end of the seventies.
Besides renting used bikes to Stanford students this shop had one other distinct peculiarity:
At that time the Macy's department stores still had a sporting goods department and still sold bicycles. Twice a year they would run a trade-in promotion. Customers could trade in any old bike for a $10 discount on any new bike. My employer bought all of those trade-in bikes from Northern California for $5 each. He would haul them by the trailer-load to the shop where they would reside in a huge tangled pile, hundreds of them, at one end of our shop. During the winter months we would slowly work our way through the pile, refurbishing what we could for sale or rent. Fortunately for us this all took place before there were many of the really junky "Free Spirit" department store bikes being traded in. The pile of bikes was like something from a cheap horror movie: It just kept growing and growing no matter how fast we tried to reduce its size. When it got so large that it threatened to push the sales floor and the work stations right out the front door my boss began renting warehouses in East Palo Alto to store the overflow! I'm glad Macy's finally stopped that promotion or that pile would have eventually taken over the world.
Brent
12-24-17, 06:18 PM
#35
~>~
Originally Posted by johnnyspaghetti
Brass is soft and tends to cause less destructive behavior when impacting steel.
It surly can move steel due to its mass which is greater than steel.
It surly can move steel due to its mass which is greater than steel.
Not only does it impart a firm impact to the cotter being struck it will also not re-bound like a steel-on-steel strike can.
This is a good thing.
The brass cotter hammer & VAR press were kept in the service managers' area in our shop to not be used/abused for any other purpose.
Over decades of service the once flat hammer head was slightly convex from use. Excellent tools.
-Bandera
12-24-17, 11:30 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Pigseye
Posts: 577
Bikes: Raleigh Sports
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by wschruba
Not sure if you are serious, but it's because the nut is only retaining it, keeping it from vibrating loose. If the threads were strong enough to pull the wedge tight, they would be about the same diameter as the cotter, which would leave no room for the tapered face. The use of a press/hammer to tighten the wedge is actually a rather elegant solution.
Just like a square taper crank, the nut/bolt only serves to keep the wedge in place--the friction of the wedge itself provides the connection.
There are numerous examples of tapered fasteners/joins elsewhere (old nails, for one, drill/lathe chucks, etc) that operate in a similar manner, if not an exact copy.
Just like a square taper crank, the nut/bolt only serves to keep the wedge in place--the friction of the wedge itself provides the connection.
There are numerous examples of tapered fasteners/joins elsewhere (old nails, for one, drill/lathe chucks, etc) that operate in a similar manner, if not an exact copy.
12-25-17, 09:30 AM
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I rode the cottering pin loose on the non-drive side of my Raleigh. No luck on the drive side yet however. On a side note, where would one purhase replacement cotter pins?
12-25-17, 10:13 AM
#38
Senior Member
What kinds of presses are we talking about? Several in this thread have stated "I have a nice cotter press" but it functioned to no avail. I just got a Bikesmithdesign press from Mark Stonich, it's creator. Is this fine-looking tool failing you guys? It's basically a small C clamp with a massive threaded pin and a much more massive frame to transmit the force from the threaded pin to the crank arm, through the cotter to crank spindle interface.
12-25-17, 11:38 AM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bloomington/Normal IL
Posts: 1,063
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times
in
108 Posts
Originally Posted by josh23
I rode the cottering pin loose on the non-drive side of my Raleigh. No luck on the drive side yet however. On a side note, where would one purhase replacement cotter pins?
Replacement cotters can be had from Mark Stonich, Bikesmith.
BikeSmith Design and Fabrication
Check out his site. Lots of good info to be had there.
12-25-17, 03:30 PM
#40
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,807
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Mentioned: 566 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1886 Post(s)
Liked 476 Times
in
295 Posts
Originally Posted by Road Fan
What kinds of presses are we talking about? Several in this thread have stated "I have a nice cotter press" but it functioned to no avail. I just got a Bikesmithdesign press from Mark Stonich, it's creator. Is this fine-looking tool failing you guys? It's basically a small C clamp with a massive threaded pin and a much more massive frame to transmit the force from the threaded pin to the crank arm, through the cotter to crank spindle interface.
And I have several tools for cotters, including the Bikesmith Design tool. Though an admirable tool, it is made for a crank that has a generous space between chain ring and crank arm, clearance for the chain guard. The tool is alas useless on cranks with less clearance.
My preferred cotter press is a drill press vise, used with a wrench socket. I also have couple cheap tools from Harbor Freight that I have modified to serve as cotter presses.
If anyone wants to buy a lightly use Bikesmith Design cotter tool, a private message is in order.
12-25-17, 06:24 PM
#41
Senior Member
I use a ball joint splitter, get the longer scissor type, crank down the nut and works everytime.
12-25-17, 07:26 PM
#42
OFG in Exile
Sooner or later you are going to have to drill one out.
You'll know when, just don't waste any more time at that point. You're gonna need a new pin anyway and time is money.
You'll know when, just don't waste any more time at that point. You're gonna need a new pin anyway and time is money.
12-26-17, 07:26 AM
#43
Passista
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,431
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaņa pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 811 Post(s)
Liked 561 Times
in
308 Posts
Not always possible as said above, but sometimes you can remove the right BB cup with axle & crank, then use a hydraulic press. Drilling on the crank side sometimes is difficult because of the ring.
