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Old 01-13-18, 04:32 PM   #26
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Thanks. I will double check that. No problems with it so far.

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Forgot to mention that changeover year was 1977. This was when model 93 ended and was superseded by model 105. Model 104 launched and model 99 was revised.

"Although the BCD is identical the c/w's are not."

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Old 01-13-18, 04:58 PM   #27
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I have to say, those Gran(d) Sport(s) with the white / lagoon blue panels may be the classiest looking color scheme ever. I'll even grudgingly admit it's better than the also awesome pearl orange / chrome look Centurion rocked on their 75-77 models. (That's saying something, because everyone knows orange is the best / fastest color for a bike.)
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Old 01-13-18, 06:22 PM   #28
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Nothing stock about mine. Well, ok, the crankset. Bought new and made a few changes over the years. OP, you have a really nice bike there; an everyday gentleman's bike. Enjoy.
Damn, that's a great color and build! Powder or wet paint? Color?
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Old 01-14-18, 12:08 AM   #29
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Damn, that's a great color and build! Powder or wet paint? Color?
Thanks. It’s powder, RAL 6019.

Juvela, the inner is actually a 93 ring that I drilled to match the outer, so maybe not quite as big a gap as you predicted.

OP, sorry for the thread hijack. Your bike is looking really good.
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Old 01-14-18, 01:30 AM   #30
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I identified my recent Grand Sports (in 23-12" size) as being from the 1973 Serial number system, and I measured the frame angles:

Toptube length is 57cm, the Seattube angle is 73.2 degrees and the headtube angle is 71.3 degrees.

This is the same as a same-vintage Super Course model's geometry, which combines a sporting seattube angle (suitable for higher level pedaling intensity) with a relatively relaxed headtube angle (suitable even for off-roading).
This is roughly the same angles recipe as used for a cyclocross bike, hybrid or 1990's mountainbike.

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Old 01-14-18, 07:56 AM   #31
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Thanks. It’s powder, RAL 6019.

Juvela, the inner is actually a 93 ring that I drilled to match the outer, so maybe not quite as big a gap as you predicted.

OP, sorry for the thread hijack. Your bike is looking really good.
I've seen your bike pics while searching for info on the GS, and I love everything you've done with it, especially the paint.
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Old 01-14-18, 01:03 PM   #32
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I've seen your bike pics while searching for info on the GS, and I love everything you've done with it, especially the paint.
Thanks very much. But I do hope you keep your original paint. I wish I had, but at this point I will have to forgive my 20 yo self.
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Old 01-14-18, 01:54 PM   #33
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I snagged onto a GS frameset last summer that I'm not totally sure what I going to do with. I'm thinking on painting it the same pale yellow as my '73 MGB/GT. I've got an alloy shell Sturmey 3-speed that is laced to a 27" Mavic rim. I've been thinking I'll use that so I can turn this rig into an upright bar errand runner/commuter. Just what I need, another Frankenbike!
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Old 01-14-18, 02:12 PM   #34
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I saw this one as well. Nice bike at a good price. I have bought several times from the seller, he's a regular at the Tinley Park flea market. Earlville is just down the road a piece.
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Old 01-14-18, 04:31 PM   #35
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I saw this one as well. Nice bike at a good price. I have bought several times from the seller, he's a regular at the Tinley Park flea market. Earlville is just down the road a piece.
He was a great guy to deal with. I used to go to that flea market years ago when I lived in Orland Pk,back when it was the I80 flea market. Now it's too far for me. I'm way west now.
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Old 01-16-18, 08:18 PM   #36
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The pedals are pretty cool. They're Victor BMX pedals I think. Need a good cleaning.
-----

Thanks so much for your response on me pedal query.

Victor is a new-to-me name for pedals. Checked a bit online and found one similar model which is not counterbalanced. Found no examples like yours. Perhaps they are a bit rare. Lots of modern cast models for BMX & MTB from this maker.

Curiously no Victor peds are listed at VB.

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Old 01-16-18, 08:22 PM   #37
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Juvela, the inner is actually a 93 ring that I drilled to match the outer, so maybe not quite as big a gap as you predicted.
-----

Thanks for the response; good to read. So your inner instead of being a "105bis" is a home modified "93bis."

Beautiful job with that project. Positively arresting!


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Old 01-16-18, 09:53 PM   #38
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Thanks so much for your response on me pedal query.

Victor is a new-to-me name for pedals. Checked a bit online and found one similar model which is not counterbalanced. Found no examples like yours. Perhaps they are a bit rare. Lots of modern cast models for BMX & MTB from this maker.

Curiously no Victor peds are listed at VB.

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There's someone on ebay selling new ones, at least they look like mine. There's no model number on them.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F382315885529
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Old 01-16-18, 10:00 PM   #39
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There's someone on ebay selling new ones, at least they look like mine. There's no model number on them.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F382315885529
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Thanks very much; good research on your part!

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Old 01-17-18, 07:38 AM   #40
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I just got this the other day and am having a lot of fun learning about it. I've determined that it's a 73. Couple questions for all the knowledgeable bf members. Are these Zeus dropouts? They don't say anything but it does have the hanger. It has a GB stem but the randonneur handlebars don't say anything. Would they be GB also? The whole bike pic was from the ad so I hope he doesn't mind me using it. I'll get more pics up soon.

Two observations. Raleigh lightweights stamped with that serial number convention in that location generally ceased to be produced later than 1971 or 1972.

I have a 1971 Competition that has a stamp with that convention, but it is not even a forged dropout (appears to be a top-of-the-line stamped one) that is a Zeus Competition dropout.

Two possibilities for further identification. First, check for a stamp on the front dropout. If there is one, the rears are likely the same. Second, if there is a derailleur hanger on the drive-side rear dropout, it might be possible to make some determinations about the maker with a photo to reference.

Those are nice bikes. Pretty comfortable for long rides, and quite versatile.
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Old 01-17-18, 11:35 AM   #41
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I have a '73 Super Course that I absolutely love. I built it up from a found frame, not original, but suited to my needs, as an Eroica bike. I found a '70's Grand Sport at a local shop, and wonder if it is that different from my SC to ride. The GS is complete except for a non stock painted fork, but I don't see any damage, and the paint is decent, white and Laguna blue. Been thinking about it for awhile, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. It has 27" wheels, which doesn't fit my other bikes, all 700c. You guys who have both, SC and GS, is there a difference? My SC shown below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2017-11-22 14.29.58.jpg (1.77 MB, 112 views)

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Old 01-17-18, 11:39 AM   #42
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Two observations. Raleigh lightweights stamped with that serial number convention in that location generally ceased to be produced later than 1971 or 1972.

I have a 1971 Competition that has a stamp with that convention, but it is not even a forged dropout (appears to be a top-of-the-line stamped one) that is a Zeus Competition dropout.

Two possibilities for further identification. First, check for a stamp on the front dropout. If there is one, the rears are likely the same. Second, if there is a derailleur hanger on the drive-side rear dropout, it might be possible to make some determinations about the maker with a photo to reference.

Those are nice bikes. Pretty comfortable for long rides, and quite versatile.
The reason for thinking it was a 73 was from what I read on this site.Raleigh Serial Numbers & Charts
Mine does have a derailleur hanger but I haven't removed the derailleur yet to see if that side has any markings. The fronts don't have anything but I'll look later today with better lighting to be sure.
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Old 01-17-18, 11:41 AM   #43
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I have a '73 Super Course that I absolutely love. I built it up from a found frame, not original, but suited to my needs, as an Eroica bike. I found a '70's Grand Sport at a local shop, as wonder if it is that different from my SC to ride. The GS is complete except for a non stock painted fork, but I don't see any damage, and the paint is decent, white and Laguna blue. Been thinking about it for awhile, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. It has 27" wheels, which doesn't fit my other bikes, all 700c. You guys who have both, SC and GS, is there a difference? My SC shown below.
That's a nice looking bike you have! There's a topic on here somewhere about comparing the SC and the GS.
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Old 01-17-18, 12:12 PM   #44
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I'm pretty sure those pedals are not original. The originals were Atom.
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Old 01-17-18, 12:49 PM   #45
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I have a '73 Super Course that I absolutely love. I built it up from a found frame, not original, but suited to my needs, as an Eroica bike. I found a '70's Grand Sport at a local shop, as wonder if it is that different from my SC to ride. The GS is complete except for a non stock painted fork, but I don't see any damage, and the paint is decent, white and Laguna blue. Been thinking about it for awhile, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. It has 27" wheels, which doesn't fit my other bikes, all 700c. You guys who have both, SC and GS, is there a difference? My SC shown below.
Nice looking bike.

I have never owned a SC but I believe the main difference is straight gauge tubing vs db so a bit of weight savings + ride characteristics that you may or may not feel. Given that you already have such a nice SC and the GS has a replacement fork (often a red flag) if it were me I would hold off. I love my GS and can recommend one without hesitation but they are not super rare and you might as well wait for a complete one. My $.02.
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Old 01-17-18, 01:20 PM   #46
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Nice looking bike.

I have never owned a SC but I believe the main difference is straight gauge tubing vs db so a bit of weight savings + ride characteristics that you may or may not feel. Given that you already have such a nice SC and the GS has a replacement fork (often a red flag) if it were me I would hold off. I love my GS and can recommend one without hesitation but they are not super rare and you might as well wait for a complete one. My $.02.

There were a number of CARLTON-BUILT Raleighs from that era around 1973 which were brazed by insuffiently-skilled or time-constrained workers. As such, many of these bikes forks had to be replaced when they turned up at the shops with insufficient or nonexistent brazing fill, or that failed early in actual use. So a replacement fork on these SC and GS models is less of an indication of a collision than would be the case with other brands/models of bikes.

I would carefully inspect any one of these bikes for brazing issues before investing in it's restoration. Some of the seatstay brazing at the seat lug I've actually seen is just a failure waiting to happen, and many of these bike's fork crowns were reportedly not even actually brazed to the steerer tube, leaving only the brake mounting bolt to keep the crown solidly attached!

These are very attractive and nice-riding bikes, so it is a real shame that the Carlton factory suffered such quality control lapses.
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Old 01-17-18, 01:46 PM   #47
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The reason for thinking it was a 73 was from what I read on this site.Raleigh Serial Numbers & Charts
Mine does have a derailleur hanger but I haven't removed the derailleur yet to see if that side has any markings. The fronts don't have anything but I'll look later today with better lighting to be sure.
I had forgotten that the Grand Sport was excluded from the "Carlton" numbering scheme. That could be.
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Old 01-17-18, 02:18 PM   #48
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There were a number of CARLTON-BUILT Raleighs from that era around 1973 which were brazed by insuffiently-skilled or time-constrained workers. As such, many of these bikes forks had to be replaced when they turned up at the shops with insufficient or nonexistent brazing fill, or that failed early in actual use. So a replacement fork on these SC and GS models is less of an indication of a collision than would be the case with other brands/models of bikes.

I would carefully inspect any one of these bikes for brazing issues before investing in it's restoration. Some of the seatstay brazing at the seat lug I've actually seen is just a failure waiting to happen, and many of these bike's fork crowns were reportedly not even actually brazed to the steerer tube, leaving only the brake mounting bolt to keep the crown solidly attached!

These are very attractive and nice-riding bikes, so it is a real shame that the Carlton factory suffered such quality control lapses.
In restoring my SC I found cracks in both seat stays, and the brazing looked suspect, so I stripped it and had it re-brazed. Here's a progression of what I found, from spray painted pea green, to final darker than shock color BRG. The GS I found is in good shape paintwise, and I didn't see any visible cracks. It wasn't cheap, but what a great ride!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg braze1.jpg (217.0 KB, 100 views)
File Type: jpg braze2.jpg (425.3 KB, 101 views)
File Type: jpg braze3.jpg (81.0 KB, 100 views)
File Type: jpg finished.jpg (293.2 KB, 100 views)
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Old 01-17-18, 03:26 PM   #49
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I'm fond of those white/blue/chrome GS finishes. My Sports often shares a locking stand at work with one that's been tastefully converted to single speed. I have yet to meet its owner.

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Old 01-17-18, 04:14 PM   #50
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I never should have sold my Gran Sport. But I have an International and a Super Course, so I have a lot to be happy about.
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