Campy BB Spindle length for Triplizer conversion
01-28-18, 06:18 PM
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Campy BB Spindle length for Triplizer conversion
Hello All. Back at an old project. I have found a Campy triplizer kit for Campy BCD 135mm . My current crank is 1990 Athena, double , BB shell is Italian 70mm and the current Spindle is 111mm. (Square Taper ISO ). Looking at Velobase, Centur to the uses 124mm, which is way too long. The triplizer should at about 5mm to the crank width.
Question, will a 115mm spindle work ? If not, what size should I be shopping for ?
Thank you. KB.
Question, will a 115mm spindle work ? If not, what size should I be shopping for ?
Thank you. KB.
01-28-18, 08:43 PM
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Hello All. Back at an old project. I have found a Campy triplizer kit for Campy BCD 135mm . My current crank is 1990 Athena, double , BB shell is Italian 70mm and the current Spindle is 111mm. (Square Taper ISO ). Looking at Velobase, Centur to the uses 124mm, which is way too long. The triplizer should at about 5mm to the crank width.
Question, will a 115mm spindle work ? If not, what size should I be shopping for ?
Thank you. KB.
Question, will a 115mm spindle work ? If not, what size should I be shopping for ?
Thank you. KB.
Problem is, you need 5-6mm extra, but only on the drive side. Overall length might end up more than that, to keep the Q factor close to symmetrical. Coincidentally, that is the size for the old Record/Gran Sport double. But those spindles probably won't work, because the drive side offset might not be enough.
So of course you'll need to measure the length of spindle you have on the drive side, add the 5-6mm to that, and find a BB that has that amount, regardless of the total length.
If you want to try the Record/GS spindles, they might be hard to find. They work only with thin-wall cups, which if your BB is Athena, you might have*. But the Nuovo Record spindles (for thick-walled and rifled cups) are far more common**.
Goes without saying that your frame clearance is the final determinant. If you have lots right now, then the Record/GS might be fine. It should have about 3mm more drive side length than your 111.
If you can find an old 70-SS-120 X3 Record spindle for triples, that would almost certainly work. It's 118mm and has that extra drive side offset. But, pretty dang rare for Italian BBs. (Not as much for 68mm shells, because Paramount used them on the P-15 for quite a few years.)
*According to my reference, the 111mm spindle is Chorus, and is silver. Athena spindles would be black, and 114mm long. Both use thin-wall cups though.
**Record and Nuovo Record spindles are not the same. Fun fact: there are only three individual parts that are actually called Nuovo Record in the catalogs: the thick-cup BB, the alloy rear derailleur, and the 1010/B rear dropout. Everything else in the Nuovo Record gruppo is just Record.
01-29-18, 08:35 AM
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That might work.
Problem is, you need 5-6mm extra, but only on the drive side. Overall length might end up more than that, to keep the Q factor close to symmetrical. Coincidentally, that is the size for the old Record/Gran Sport double. But those spindles probably won't work, because the drive side offset might not be enough.
So of course you'll need to measure the length of spindle you have on the drive side, add the 5-6mm to that, and find a BB that has that amount, regardless of the total length.
If you want to try the Record/GS spindles, they might be hard to find. They work only with thin-wall cups, which if your BB is Athena, you might have*. But the Nuovo Record spindles (for thick-walled and rifled cups) are far more common**.
Goes without saying that your frame clearance is the final determinant. If you have lots right now, then the Record/GS might be fine. It should have about 3mm more drive side length than your 111.
If you can find an old 70-SS-120 X3 Record spindle for triples, that would almost certainly work. It's 118mm and has that extra drive side offset. But, pretty dang rare for Italian BBs. (Not as much for 68mm shells, because Paramount used them on the P-15 for quite a few years.)
*According to my reference, the 111mm spindle is Chorus, and is silver. Athena spindles would be black, and 114mm long. Both use thin-wall cups though.
**Record and Nuovo Record spindles are not the same. Fun fact: there are only three individual parts that are actually called Nuovo Record in the catalogs: the thick-cup BB, the alloy rear derailleur, and the 1010/B rear dropout. Everything else in the Nuovo Record gruppo is just Record.
Problem is, you need 5-6mm extra, but only on the drive side. Overall length might end up more than that, to keep the Q factor close to symmetrical. Coincidentally, that is the size for the old Record/Gran Sport double. But those spindles probably won't work, because the drive side offset might not be enough.
So of course you'll need to measure the length of spindle you have on the drive side, add the 5-6mm to that, and find a BB that has that amount, regardless of the total length.
If you want to try the Record/GS spindles, they might be hard to find. They work only with thin-wall cups, which if your BB is Athena, you might have*. But the Nuovo Record spindles (for thick-walled and rifled cups) are far more common**.
Goes without saying that your frame clearance is the final determinant. If you have lots right now, then the Record/GS might be fine. It should have about 3mm more drive side length than your 111.
If you can find an old 70-SS-120 X3 Record spindle for triples, that would almost certainly work. It's 118mm and has that extra drive side offset. But, pretty dang rare for Italian BBs. (Not as much for 68mm shells, because Paramount used them on the P-15 for quite a few years.)
*According to my reference, the 111mm spindle is Chorus, and is silver. Athena spindles would be black, and 114mm long. Both use thin-wall cups though.
**Record and Nuovo Record spindles are not the same. Fun fact: there are only three individual parts that are actually called Nuovo Record in the catalogs: the thick-cup BB, the alloy rear derailleur, and the 1010/B rear dropout. Everything else in the Nuovo Record gruppo is just Record.
01-29-18, 09:56 AM
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I have to correct myself. Or rather, refine my answer. Campagnolo changed their crankarms and spindles in 1978, so earlier versions of the 70-SS-120 (often stamped X) will only be 113mm. You would need a post-1978 to get the 115. After about 1985, the spindles were stamped "70-SS" only, but so were many different sized spindles in the Campy lineup. So you're looking for a pretty specific version. The stamp on it is less important than the dimensions.
Goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that you will need to make sure your derailleurs can handle the increased gear range the triple will give you. Front derailleurs have a maximum tooth difference capacity, and rears have a maximum total gear capacity. A triple might exceed both, so you might end up having to change both.
01-29-18, 10:35 AM
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01-29-18, 12:33 PM
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01-29-18, 12:37 PM
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I'm less sure; if your spindle is actually 114, the 115 probably won't do you much good. If your spindle is 111, it might be fine.
I have to correct myself. Or rather, refine my answer. Campagnolo changed their crankarms and spindles in 1978, so earlier versions of the 70-SS-120 (often stamped X) will only be 113mm. You would need a post-1978 to get the 115. After about 1985, the spindles were stamped "70-SS" only, but so were many different sized spindles in the Campy lineup. So you're looking for a pretty specific version. The stamp on it is less important than the dimensions.
Goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that you will need to make sure your derailleurs can handle the increased gear range the triple will give you. Front derailleurs have a maximum tooth difference capacity, and rears have a maximum total gear capacity. A triple might exceed both, so you might end up having to change both.
I have to correct myself. Or rather, refine my answer. Campagnolo changed their crankarms and spindles in 1978, so earlier versions of the 70-SS-120 (often stamped X) will only be 113mm. You would need a post-1978 to get the 115. After about 1985, the spindles were stamped "70-SS" only, but so were many different sized spindles in the Campy lineup. So you're looking for a pretty specific version. The stamp on it is less important than the dimensions.
Goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that you will need to make sure your derailleurs can handle the increased gear range the triple will give you. Front derailleurs have a maximum tooth difference capacity, and rears have a maximum total gear capacity. A triple might exceed both, so you might end up having to change both.
01-29-18, 12:53 PM
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I'm less sure; if your spindle is actually 114, the 115 probably won't do you much good. If your spindle is 111, it might be fine.
I have to correct myself. Or rather, refine my answer. Campagnolo changed their crankarms and spindles in 1978, so earlier versions of the 70-SS-120 (often stamped X) will only be 113mm. You would need a post-1978 to get the 115. After about 1985, the spindles were stamped "70-SS" only, but so were many different sized spindles in the Campy lineup. So you're looking for a pretty specific version. The stamp on it is less important than the dimensions.
Goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that you will need to make sure your derailleurs can handle the increased gear range the triple will give you. Front derailleurs have a maximum tooth difference capacity, and rears have a maximum total gear capacity. A triple might exceed both, so you might end up having to change both.
I have to correct myself. Or rather, refine my answer. Campagnolo changed their crankarms and spindles in 1978, so earlier versions of the 70-SS-120 (often stamped X) will only be 113mm. You would need a post-1978 to get the 115. After about 1985, the spindles were stamped "70-SS" only, but so were many different sized spindles in the Campy lineup. So you're looking for a pretty specific version. The stamp on it is less important than the dimensions.
Goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that you will need to make sure your derailleurs can handle the increased gear range the triple will give you. Front derailleurs have a maximum tooth difference capacity, and rears have a maximum total gear capacity. A triple might exceed both, so you might end up having to change both.
01-29-18, 12:55 PM
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Hello John. My current Athena Spindle is 116mm. Double. With the addition of another chaiinring and spacer, I'm looking at 124mm spindle, I think ??KB
01-29-18, 12:56 PM
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Pretty sure the GS spindle I have is 115, but I'll measure it tonight.
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01-29-18, 01:28 PM
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You might need that Centaur 124 after all, or the later "70-SS X3" triple BB, in 122 or 124. They all have the correct offset for triples.
Given the possible rarity of both those options, it might be quicker and easier to go with a Phil Wood.
01-29-18, 05:45 PM
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Yep, that 116 changes things! My chart shows the 116 as a Xenon spindle for doubles, by the way.
You might need that Centaur 124 after all, or the later "70-SS X3" triple BB, in 122 or 124. They all have the correct offset for triples.
Given the possible rarity of both those options, it might be quicker and easier to go with a Phil Wood.
You might need that Centaur 124 after all, or the later "70-SS X3" triple BB, in 122 or 124. They all have the correct offset for triples.
Given the possible rarity of both those options, it might be quicker and easier to go with a Phil Wood.
For the cost of this upgrade, I started looking at Mirage/Centur/Daytona triple cranksets. Lots in the 70 - 110 range , used in good shape, but another issue reared up. Need a triple BB, no problem, 70 x 115.5 is required . But some sites added that the BB goes with said triples and 32 or 35mm seat tube. What the @@#%$ . My Concorde 1990 seat tube is 29.2 or so . I don't understand what the seat tube width has to do with the price of tea in China, (so to speak). Also, there is the issue of using a 7/8 speed chain on a 10 speed crankset. Or 10 speed chain on 7 speed cassette. I'm trying to keep this bike Campy spec'd.
So, if the 70 x 124 spindle does work out, another dead end . I got the gear inches down from 39 to 32 going from a 26T to a 32T. Works good. The Athena RD is spec'd for a max 30, but a little fine tuning , got the 32 working just fine.
This is my favorite bike, was custom made, before retirement. So I restrict this bike to rolling hills to flats. My other bikes are Shimano equipped and lower geared. Hills, no problem, I love the climbs. KB
01-29-18, 06:49 PM
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I'd install the crankset with the parts you have, and try to figure out how well it fits, then go from there.
Keep in mind the chainstays also taper towards the BB. Is dimpling the chainstay for the 3rd ring an option?
Keep in mind the chainstays also taper towards the BB. Is dimpling the chainstay for the 3rd ring an option?
01-29-18, 07:37 PM
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Edit: No, I don't want to dimple the chainstay. KB
Last edited by kcblair; 01-29-18 at 07:41 PM.
01-29-18, 08:13 PM
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Say, another idea, after reading Sheldon Browns page on mixing ISO/JIS spindles. "If you install an ISO crank on a J.I.S. spindle, it will sit about 4.5 mm farther out than it would on an ISO spindle of the same length." He further says " but I have a lot of experience mixing ISO/J.I.S. in both directions on my own personal bikes, and it has never given me a lick of trouble"
I have no problem finding "Shimano BB-UN55 70x118mm Italian Square Taper Bottom Bracket". Cheap too.
Any thoughts on this guys ? KB
I have no problem finding "Shimano BB-UN55 70x118mm Italian Square Taper Bottom Bracket". Cheap too.
Any thoughts on this guys ? KB
06-20-18, 10:14 AM
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Yep, striking out here. Found a 70x 124 Campy at a place in CO., but their website hasn't been updated since 2016, emailed anyway. Didn't find anything on Phil Wood, website, so emailed them, too. Waiting responses.
For the cost of this upgrade, I started looking at Mirage/Centur/Daytona triple cranksets. Lots in the 70 - 110 range , used in good shape, but another issue reared up. Need a triple BB, no problem, 70 x 115.5 is required . But some sites added that the BB goes with said triples and 32 or 35mm seat tube. What the @@#%$ . My Concorde 1990 seat tube is 29.2 or so . I don't understand what the seat tube width has to do with the price of tea in China, (so to speak). Also, there is the issue of using a 7/8 speed chain on a 10 speed crankset. Or 10 speed chain on 7 speed cassette. I'm trying to keep this bike Campy spec'd.
So, if the 70 x 124 spindle does work out, another dead end . I got the gear inches down from 39 to 32 going from a 26T to a 32T. Works good. The Athena RD is spec'd for a max 30, but a little fine tuning , got the 32 working just fine.
This is my favorite bike, was custom made, before retirement. So I restrict this bike to rolling hills to flats. My other bikes are Shimano equipped and lower geared. Hills, no problem, I love the climbs. KB
For the cost of this upgrade, I started looking at Mirage/Centur/Daytona triple cranksets. Lots in the 70 - 110 range , used in good shape, but another issue reared up. Need a triple BB, no problem, 70 x 115.5 is required . But some sites added that the BB goes with said triples and 32 or 35mm seat tube. What the @@#%$ . My Concorde 1990 seat tube is 29.2 or so . I don't understand what the seat tube width has to do with the price of tea in China, (so to speak). Also, there is the issue of using a 7/8 speed chain on a 10 speed crankset. Or 10 speed chain on 7 speed cassette. I'm trying to keep this bike Campy spec'd.
So, if the 70 x 124 spindle does work out, another dead end . I got the gear inches down from 39 to 32 going from a 26T to a 32T. Works good. The Athena RD is spec'd for a max 30, but a little fine tuning , got the 32 working just fine.
This is my favorite bike, was custom made, before retirement. So I restrict this bike to rolling hills to flats. My other bikes are Shimano equipped and lower geared. Hills, no problem, I love the climbs. KB
Does anyone know the answer to this riddle?
06-20-18, 03:28 PM
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Did you ever figure out what the seat tube diameter has to do with the BB? I am looking for a 70 X ???? to put in my Pinarello Treviso so I can run a CampI Mirage triple. There is a Centaur on Amazon that is 70 X 115 and says that it fits a triple, but then also says something about the extra wide seat tube so I'm deeply confused.
Does anyone know the answer to this riddle?
Does anyone know the answer to this riddle?
06-21-18, 10:33 AM
#18
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Thanks kcblair, I'll let you know how it goes.
06-26-18, 08:22 AM
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06-26-18, 02:26 PM
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06-26-18, 02:35 PM
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It's an 8 speed cassette and I'm using an Avanti triple FD. I'm going to upgrade this bike to chorus at some point, but I had this Mirage/Avanti group laying around so I'm using it in the interim.
06-26-18, 03:07 PM
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just another data point.... i have a new success double (made by campy) i used an iso 118mm vo bottom bracket and it works great with the triplizer.
06-26-18, 03:49 PM
#23
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Thank you, I'll have to see if my Athena FD has enough movement for a triple. KB
06-26-18, 03:50 PM
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