Kuromori

The fact that he wants to sell a premium frame that is functionally equivalent of a OTS/surly/soma/other modern welded retro frame, but scorns premium components and prefers an Altus RD because he thinks it’s functionally equivalent always struck me as a bit contradictory and not good for business.

Yes lugs are nice. So are components that are more than one step up from Walmart. A bit odd to fetishize one and scorn the other for reasons other than extreme grouchiness of the retro variety. If he really was into the “just ride” philosophy you’d think he should have jumped into Maxway welded frames at the $500 spot like others.

Salamandrine 

Maybe not great marketing, but it is rational. It's an attitude you'll find a lot of experienced mechanics have. Many components are disposable, especially derailleurs. Put the money in the frame, nice tires, good wheels, and a decent crankset. Sometimes cheap components work better than more expensive ones. I remember BITD I took heat from some quarters by preferring cheap Suntour power-shifters to many fancier more expensive shifters.

Anyway, the Riv frames are (IMO) nicer than the bikes you mention, though there's nothing wrong with any of those. I'm not even sure I'd call them functionally equivalent. Riv kind of undersells the quality level of the frames a bit IMHO, to go with their whole blue collar everyman bike shtick. I have the cheapest one, the Clem, and I'd compare it to an old MB1 or maybe top end Stumpy, but with cooler lugs and fork.

radroad

I've praised Grant many times, but he is stubborn and egotistical to an outlandish degree. He won't adapt or change at all.

Instead, he grovels and begs for a handout every few years trying to stave off the inevitable.

His greatest gift is as a writer, certainly not as a bike builder or designer.

I love his Bridgestone designs. The rivs I find ugly anachronistic and wildly overpriced. I've run out of sympathy for him.

ricebowl

I'm a converted fan. A couple of things that strike me as odd. Their most popular model according to them (not sure if the clem has overtaken it) is the Sam Hillborne. But they keep on messing with it's availability. I had some money burning a hole in my wallet a couple of years ago but the sam was unavailable. Now it's on hiatus again with no orders planned for 2019. Seems counterintuitive to not have your most popular model available all the time.

The whole thumb/bar end/drop bar silver shifter 2 saga. A lot of trouble and cost for something that probably won't sell like crazy.

Kuromori

I actually have to disagree, I actually think getting a "nice" frame is not rational, especially when most of the difference is fit and finish and you can get "close enough". Most people couldn't even qualify or quantify what makes one from nicer than another similar one in terms of ride quality without a back to back comparison, and even then it might be psychosomatic or they would just say the more expensive one is better because whatever difference in feel must be better. It's just the part of the bike that is the least replaceable before ending up with the bike of Theseus. I know getting a fancy frame and upgrading components later was common wisdom back in the day, but the things that really make a difference are contact points/fit, tires, and gearing. Throw in brakes if you have really awful brakes. Of course the Rivs are nicer, I said as much, the point is they don't match the everyman functional shtick he has for components. If you ride an Atlantis and a LHT with the same components without looking down, I have a hard time seeing how you could argue they weren't functionally equivalent. The Atlantis of course is actually built better, looks nicer, and costs a lot more.

radroad

Go to 5:24. As Chris Cocalis explains, bikes built to closer tolerances cost more but ride better. I've ridden many mountain bikes and Pivot rides far better than bikes produced by the big 3 at lower prices. As they should.

Kuromori

Oh dear, the dreaded threaded BB creak and sloppy full susser pivots. Not to be too prickly, but aren't you basically saying the problems he mentions are nonissues for the kind of bikes we're talking about here?

paulb_in_bkln

Sure he has. To reduce the price, several of his current bikes combine welding and lugs. This must have been a big compromise for him to make. One of the current bikes is offered with a choice of traditional or threadless headset. Some have V brakes. Grant simply faces a paradox (or reality) of the market: high-end bike customers will freely spend ten grand for a big-name carbon fiber bike but not half as much for a bike made of steel, no matter how good, especially one that doesn't have the imprimatur (i.e., recognizability) of a major brand. As someone pointed out above, there's also availability: long lead times for some bikes. Customers with deep pockets may want their new toy right now, not in six months or a year. Bikesnobnyc recently resumed club racing, and even though Riv is a sponsor of his blog, he didn't consider Grant's Roadeo for a new bike. "Too classy." Nor even the Roadini. He bought an off the shelf carbon racing bike. I understand his reasoning. He needed a tool, not a showpiece. And now too, thanks in large part to the market Grant helped to create for them, Surly and Velo Orange and others offer bikes with many of the Riv advantages, if not the beauty, extravagant quality, and lugs, at a much lower price. Sure I'd love a Sam or a Homer or an Atlantis, but if I ever buy another new bike, it will probably be a VO Campeur. It depresses me to say it. But here I am.

gomango

While there are some real yawners in the lineup, what's so bad about the A. Homer Hilsen or the Atlantis?

Neat, attractive and versatile bikes. imho

Most of us would really enjoy these bikes.

FWIW Wouldn't mind having an A/R.

radroad

Disc brakes for better braking. Alu, carbon, ti for lighter weight. Tubeless for convenience. "Brifters" for safe shifting. Stems with rise for comfort. Threadless headsets to accommodate said stems. Trigger shifters for safer more ergonomic shifting.

He's completely missed the train and now he's walking on foot and wondering why he's so far from his destination.

tyrion

I think Rivendell's frame designs are getting a little too weird. This strikes me as incongruous:



A curved 2nd top tube with that join that doesn't match the nice lugwork. Mix of tradition and ... weird.

RiddleOfSteel

Lug details on these frames is very nice and of course the overall attention to detail is very high. That being said, from an aesthetic standpoint, Rivendell bikes on the whole are a bit...ambivalent? Proportionally, color scheme-wise, component-wise. All sort of just "present" from an aesthetic stand point--no strong visual cues or "commitment" to a look or theme. And this isn't ROS the Race Bike Fan talking. I don't doubt the talent, the thought, and the dedication to the craft and to the product. None of their bikes light my fire, though. The upper head lug extending far above the top of the top tube is a feature and trend among custom builders that I continue to dislike as it is simply ugly.

If you can find a NOS Golden Era Trek 720 or 620 frameset or '70s Paramount touring frameset or similar from Japan or France (or a Cannondale ST! ), you'll likely save money while also having a simply beautifully proportioned and painted frame. The components that will be able to be specified will be the same, or better than equivalent Riv, if only because the specs for both are so similar. For design, proportion is very critical. One can flub details and features, but if the proportions are solid, that covers a multitude of sins. Riv bikes on the whole lack a pleasing proportion and "gesture" which is sad. It's non-committal and a bit stilted. The "glam photo" angles don't help either.

As always, this is just my opinion. A guy who went to a very good design school for (essentially) automotive design and learned a great bit--I can speak to the points I've made as I've done both good and bad work, and as a human, continue to do both, even with the intention to always do good work. Still, my opinion to GP or others of such high skill in this area, matter not. I come to comment, not to control or coerce into action.

Maybe the sun is setting. Sunsets are often beautiful. No one worries about the dark after the sunset--they enjoy the moment. A beautiful sunset is also occasion to celebrate the fact that it was a great day, wasn't it? Influential, evolutionary, passion-filled, thought-filled, eureka-moment-filled, inspiring to others, and ultimately life-long in span. Absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. A fully pursued human endeavor in all its triumph, imperfection, and individualism.

radroad

It's strange that no one's stated the obvious. Rivendell is going out of business very shortly.

The same could be said for the entire conventional bike industry, soon to be replaced/displaced by electric bicycles.

E-bikes will replace conventional bicycles in the same way that disc brakes have completely replaced rim brakes on newer bikes.

paulb_in_bkln

I'm not so sure Riv's demise is imminent--it's never been on the most secure financial footing and yet it's been, what, how many years? Ever since 1994. Help me with the arithmetic. When it does a run of funny bikes using it's leftover forks, those seem to sell quickly. I like RiddleofSteel's point that Grant's bikes face competition from the many beautiful top of the line lugged steel frames still in circulation from Fuji, Trek, etc. And Bridgestone, of course. That had occurred to me, too. The owner of my LBS just got, for a song practically, a perfect late 70s Fuji Newest, with a very low serial number, and has assembled himself one gorgeous, perfect bike. Unlike in the fairy tale, he's a shoemaker whose children have nice shoes. As for the appearance of the Rivs, well, it's a matter of taste but I can only say when I see one out in the wilderness as opposed to photos I've always, always thought, that's one very nice bicycle.

TenGrainBread 

While I think you're right that e-bikes are changing the industry, it's quite hyperbolic to state that conventional bikes will be replaced by e-bikes.

You might be right that Riv is going out of business. If multiple employees are taking 40% pay cuts to keep it afloat then I don't see how long-term, or even medium-term survival is tenable.

The lesson is that Rivendell has far more cultural value than it has business value. While you can translate cultural value into business value for a short time, it doesn't necessarily make for a long-lasting business. There's a reason libraries are publicly-funded.

The Golden Boy 

coolkat

Most of his bikes are the same welded chinese stuff that Surly, Black mountain, soma, etc sell, but with weirder geometry and higher prices.

bear_a_bug 

Cross posting myself from the /Commuting subforum, as I think it's relevant to this discussion (and I initially) thought the thread below was in C&V subforum):

from: What is the Poor Man's Rivendell?

fietsbob

Significant in the cash flow problem is the overhead due to the Realestate Balooning of house/property value and tax on that going Up Up Up..
and insurance follows in that increase ..

Rentiers always want .. more, more, more.. you want to pay less but dont win ...



Back to showing pictures of your bikes..






.....

TenGrainBread 

The brands you listed are actually contracted with Taiwanese manufacturers. But a minor thing like "getting the right country in Asia right" doesn't matter too much to internet people with edgy but uninformed opinions.

kingston 

Taiwan is officially known as the Republic of China

bark_eater 

All Mr Peterson has to do is shut down the storefront and lay off everyone who deals with the public. Who in their right mind tries to keep a brick and mortar "LBS" in operation? The man can retire except from writing copy and dropshipping his brand from offshore.

P.S. I just ordered something from them. they had the lowest price on the WWW. funny huh...

ricebowl

Salamandrine 

That approach is getting much more difficult. Probably depends on location, but the days of buying vintage mountain bikes for peanuts is over. I tried for some time to find a good 80s MTB in my size. The few I found were $1000+, and in pretty poor condition. Essentially that was for the frame, since most parts would need replacement. Add stripping and powder coating and you're approaching the mid level Rivendell prices, and for a used frame that may well have been beat up for decades. I looked initially at SOMA and VO frames, but at the time they didn't have anything with the sort of geometry I wanted. I ended up with the Clem Jr frame because it fit my requirements. Price at that time was a couple hundred more, but for me it was worth it to have a frame with the geometry I wanted. As a free bonus, it also comes with a the nice styley fork crown, seat lugs, and dropouts. Besides that is has a ton of rack mounting brazeons that old MTB would not have, and oh yeah, it's a 29'er. That's just better. For me, the choice was rather practical, but all the extra features make me happy, and the main reason I ride bikes in the first place is that it makes me happy.

Is that an irrational way to look at it? Maybe. Frankly I think all the overweight middle age dudes on 'functional' $5000+ carbon road bikes is more irrational.

TenGrainBread 

The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) is NOT the country of China as we know it (People's Republic of China). They are separate states, to the chagrin of the PRC, who have been trying to "unify" (aka colonize) Taiwan for decades.