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Water bottle boss timeline?

Old 03-20-18, 06:52 AM
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AZORCH
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Water bottle boss timeline?

Anyone know when water bottle bosses became common practice on production frames? I can pin it down to a range easily enough, but am wondering if there was a more specific year than "70's". (Yes, this is how I'm spending my spring break - pondering trivia.)
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Old 03-20-18, 07:04 AM
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Closer to 1980 in my experience. Although I just picked up a 1977 bike with bottle bosses. Odd to me as it did not have an RD cable stop, DT cable guides, or shift lever bosses.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:14 AM
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Are you looking for one boss or two?

I have, and have had quite a few early 80's bikes with just one boss. Seems like by 1984, though, they all had had two.
In the current stable, none of my 70's bikes have any, and my '78 Raleigh Pro (sold) had none as OE, my '82 PXN10 has one, my '82 Raleigh has one, '82 Univega had one, my '83 Trek has one, my '84 and later Treks all two. The outsider is a 1980 (by component date) Ranson (Belgian house brand) with two. My Gianni Motta has two, and I'm guessing could have been built anywhere from 1982-85.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AZORCH View Post
Anyone know when water bottle bosses became common practice on production frames? I can pin it down to a range easily enough, but am wondering if there was a more specific year than "70's". (Yes, this is how I'm spending my spring break - pondering trivia.)
I assume you're asking the question about production (ie. factory) frames as opposed to handbuilt (bespoke) frames ? Here's my answer -

the earliest production/factory frame I have with single bosses on the downtube - my 1984 Raleigh Corsa. The earliest frame I have with bottle bosses on the downtube (a handbuilt frame) - my 1964 Allin Belgique, I have a contemporary advertisement for this frameset offering the bosses as an option.

John.
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Old 03-20-18, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
I assume you're asking the question about production (ie. factory) frames as opposed to handbuilt (bespoke) frames ? Here's my answer -

the earliest production/factory frame I have with single bosses on the downtube - my 1984 Raleigh Corsa. The earliest frame I have with bottle bosses on the downtube (a handbuilt frame) - my 1964 Allin Belgique, I have a contemporary advertisement for this frameset offering the bosses as an option.

John.
John, I'm asking about production frames - but for my specific purposes your clarification is a good one. With a little extra time on my hands I'm pondering the age of my B. Carre frame and playing the mind game of comparing frame characteristics. So this particular frame has no bottle bosses at all. Taken on its own, that information isn't especially helpful other than to establish a very general "no later than" date, if you get my meaning. In combination with some of the other details though, and taken as a whole a little clearer picture begins to emerge: a clean top tube that requires cable clips and 120 spacing implies an earlier "no later than" date of (maybe) mid-70's. As for production vs. bespoke, I can't know that for certain. Carre built frames for a lot of people and to my understanding seldom branded them under his own name (other than on the seat stay caps). I don't know if this frame was "batch built" or unique. And these details really don't trouble me much at all, to be honest - it's a pretty wonderful rider. So you see, this is just me tapping into the collective knowledge of BF, trying to satisfy what is essentially bike trivia.

Mark
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Old 03-20-18, 10:04 AM
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It would be interesting to review the catalogs of the big manufacturers and see when these changes occurred. My only data points are an '82 Olmo and a '82-ish Raleigh Team. The Olmo has bottle braze-on's on the down tube, while the Raleigh Team has them on both the down and seat tube.


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Old 03-20-18, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
It would be interesting to review the catalogs of the big manufacturers and see when these changes occurred. My only data points are an '82 Olmo and a '82-ish Raleigh Team. The Olmo has bottle braze-on's on the down tube, while the Raleigh Team has them on both the down and seat tube.
Steve in Peoria

'81/82 Austro Daimler Olympian = no bosses
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Old 03-20-18, 11:16 AM
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Bottle bosses and cable guides were standard equipment on Treks starting in the early 80s, and available optionally before that.
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Old 03-20-18, 11:40 AM
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Fuji was using them by 1974:



https://www.classicfuji.com/1974_03_Ace_Page.htm
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Old 03-20-18, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
Wow that is interesting, as it's the only Fuji model that year to have them. The same years Newest shows a seat tube water bottle, but with tube clamp mounts. My 1980 Fuji Newest only has downtube braze-on screw mounts.
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Old 03-20-18, 04:03 PM
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'73 Colnago Super sitting here in the living room has one set of downtube bosses. Pretty sure the '72s had them as well. In my mind Colnago became a production bike in '72.
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Old 03-20-18, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Buska View Post
Wow that is interesting, as it's the only Fuji model that year to have them. The same years Newest shows a seat tube water bottle, but with tube clamp mounts. My 1980 Fuji Newest only has downtube braze-on screw mounts.
I noticed that as well. But the Ace was a new model that year; so there was a new picture for the catalog. The other bikes in the catalog had been in the previous years' catalogs and they hadn't changed the pictures. The actual bikes may have had them in '73. But my 1972 Finest doesn't have them.
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Old 03-20-18, 05:15 PM
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One can infer that overseas developments came down under a little slower then than they do now that the interweb has taken over. For what it's worth, my 1976 Hillman (Oz hand built) has down tube bosses but not seat tube. My old Malvern Star "LA '84" roadie (mass production from somewhere in Asia) was the same.
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Old 03-20-18, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
'81/82 Austro Daimler Olympian = no bosses
Interesting. My 1979 (I think) Austro Daimler (definitely) Team (I think) has bosses on the downtube.

Other data:

1982 Trek 614 -- downtube
1982 Specialized Sequoia -- top and bottom of the downtube
1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8 -- none
1972 Motobecane Grand Record -- none (at least until gugie got his hands on it)
1975 Motobecane Grand Jubilé -- none

And outside the production realm but so interesting from a timeline perspective that I need to put it in this thread, 1973 De Rosa (on the downtube):



It's a repaint, but I can't imagine anyone adding that style of bosses.
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Old 03-20-18, 05:53 PM
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Here are just a few data points from some of the bikes that have come through my studio over the past couple of years, regarding whether or not they've got water bottle bosses:

71 International- no
64 Constellation- no
early 80’s-ish Houdaille - yes
80 Sekai 2700 - yes
89 Paramount - yes
84 Shogun 2000 - yes
84 Peugeot P8 - yes
76 Centurion Super LeMans - no
73 Super Course - no
Shogun 300 - no
84 Centurion Turbo - yes
78 Bob Jackson - no
Shogun 500 - no
82 Gazelle Champion Mondial AA - yes
81 Holdsworth Professional - yes
72 Paramount - no
83/84 Katakura Silk - yes
71 Mercier - no
60’s Follis - no
71 PX-10 - no
80 Azuki - no
60’s Mercier - no
88 Voyager - yes
89 Peugeot Touraine - no
60’s Bottecchia - no

My thinking has been 76-78?
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Old 03-20-18, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
... But my 1972 Finest doesn't have them.
Nor does mine. My '77 Argos has one. I presume the frame is all original. My 1977 Raleigh Team Professional also has one.
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Old 03-21-18, 03:03 AM
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Peugeot:
team bike 1976
production, PY10 1977
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Old 03-21-18, 05:06 AM
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It varied with brand and "level," with the more upscale bikes getting them earlier.
In 1980/81, for example, $320 got you a (admittedly quite nice) chromoly lugged frame, alloy wheels, and either 10 or 12 speeds, alloy (Araya 27 x 1 1/4) rims, and was quite often without braze-ons beyond fork and dropout eyelets. Example: Nishiki Royale, which also sported bar-cons. I *think* the Fuji S10S was in this category as well. The geometry of those two bikes was well adapted to touring - I bought the Nishiki in the fall of 81 after riding a steel-rimmed Ross from Boston to DC. The Nishiki took me through 10 other states before getting sold and replaced by a (leftover 1984 or 1985) Trek 620, which in all honestly except for the stock triple crank and cantilever brakes, was a markedly inferior bicycle compared to the Nishiki, and it pains me to say it. FWIW, the Trek crossed at least 11 states and 4 provinces. It was never a great bike, but I was kind of stuck with it and it wasn't a _bad_ bike.

By late 83, early (March) of 84, $300 could command lugged double butted chomoly, 2 bottle braze ons, pump peg, and chain hanger. Rigida 1320 presta rims were showing up at that price point. 700C rims were becoming popular at that level. I believe the Trek 400 series of that year carried all of those, and I'm thinking specifically of the Campy Triomphe equipped 410. The 400 may have cost less with similar Sugino/Suntour equipment.

At about this time, there began an approximately 3 year surge in touring bikes, with many manufacturers offering cantilever brakes and dual rack braze ons plus lowrider braze on mounts. The Blackburn Low-Rider front rack was introduced in 83 (maybe 82) IIRC, so forks with mounts for those should be later than that. $400-600 and up could get a full on touring bike with all the baubles in 1984-1986.

By late 84, early 84, most or all of that was commonly seen on bikes in the $250 range. I think the Nishiki Olympic 12's were in that range about that time, some of the Columbus made Schwinns, as well as some of the lower end Fuji, Univega, the Trek 300 series. Also, trippple cranks started to appear on more road bikes.

By 85/86, the Cannondale ST series was making waves. As I recall, the ST400 had the Rigida 1320's (too narrow for really awful roads) and Dia Compe 500's (perfectly adequate at the time), and maybe a double crank, but had a good frame geometry. I think if you were patient you could find one new for around $350 in Sept-Dec. The ST600 was around $700, and the ST1000 was just north of a kilobuck. Trek's prices were similar for 420, 520, 620, and 720.

My firsthand knowledge (fuzzed no doubt by time) ends around 1987, except that the bottom seemed to drop out of the touring bike market about that time.
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Old 03-21-18, 12:17 PM
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To answer this question I would ask: "When did bolt on water bottle cages start showing up in catalogs?"
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Old 03-22-18, 09:22 AM
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AZORCH-

I have a 1973 Carre/Bertin C 37. Originally, no bottle bosses only a chainstay cable stop. Carre Carres usually had special lug and frame details like the examples here.
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