motogeek 

I have an unworn autographed Tour de Gruene (TX) T-shirt (2008, 25th Anniversary of TdG) that I got when I rode in that event and Lance did a post ride presentation.

DIMcyclist

Actually, I met him when I was 15, and he was quite charming to me. I work in publishing design and I know several British authors (a few of them quite famous), and the one thing I can say about a Brit's apparent rudeness is that it's usually a bluff; they know it's a bluff, and they expect to called on it, the more directly the better. If they know they can't bowl you over with their accents & freely bloviate, they usually take it with a laugh & start behaving.

That's kind of how the English behave with each other- they're very direct. It's subtly different from the way most Americans converse; in America (especially in Los Angeles, I've noticed) people conversationally tolerate each others' 'fronts,' their personas, rather than challenge them; in England they don't mince words & point out your BS directly. Brit humor works the same way, by deflating any proposed grandness.

Edit: If you want a sample of what I'm describing, watch a debate in the Houses of Parliament, on the occasions when they carry them on CSPAN; the MPs don't hold anything back.

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jetboy 

yeah different cultures make a huge difference. I used to work with this Iranian arts groups (still do sometimes) and they could get brutal with eachother - in particular- they knew not to do this to others having lived in the US for some time- but yeah. cursing each other out- going way over the top- things you would never say to a friend and expect less than a blood feud over small differences of opinion. Then 10 minutes later be hugging and laughing and having a great time.
"Passionate" might be the word.

the first ime they were like: don't worry, this is just how Iranians are..

merziac

So Lance is a jerk, no question about it, albeit a very successful one as evidenced by this fiasco.

That being said how is/was USPS not complicit, is it really possible they were not aware of a too good to be true opportunity to right a sinking ship, I think not and an at the time inhouse USPS counsel that I talked with agreed.

clubman 

This is a good thread, no ill-mannered barbs or trolls. Lots to think about.
For me it's all about desire, what we want and why we want it. It's all philosophy from there.

RobbieTunes

Cultures. Try getting a direct answer in the South. 5 minutes to say yes, 10 to say no.

RobbieTunes

Yep, we could convene a coven of classic cyclists, and only bring up 2 subjects: Lance Armstrong, and Grant Petersen. The conversation would last until we were out of beer or couldn't stay awake.

RobbieTunes

A medium. to this crowd.....

clubman 

With respect to age.

It's apples and oranges to compare other team sports to cycling but look back at Gretzky, most points in one season at 18 and 32 years old and most years in between. Of course they built a dynasty team around him but the physical demands of hockey are nearly as brutal as cycling, just different. Hockey has a long season with lot's of extra playoff demands. I'd hope and believe he didn't have to dope to the extent that pure endurance athletes do. Am i just stoopid and naive?

Oneder

It's pretty twisted really. Next up they will have to force a minimum level of weight and fat %. When there are millions at stake things invariably become a disgusting zoo.

Back in the 30s and 40s even the olympians were just some hobbyists paying their own way and doing it for its own sake more than anything else.

canklecat

It's a complex issue and I'm not sure there are any studies that parse the distinctions between purely physiological capacity and the mind's ability to use that capacity.

In other words, I suspect the main reason athletes generally seem to peak by their mid to late 20s isn't because of purely physiological capability, but because of experience and mental toughness.

Pain is a potent deterrent in reaching our maximum physical potential. We learn to overcome discomfort and pain. It isn't natural to most humans. That takes time and experience. Often the time it takes to overcome mental limitations means we reach our maximum mental potential just as the body is beginning to lose purely physiological capability.

A popular meme on Facebook recently purports that cyclists are the toughest athletes on Earth, and juxtaposes a few video clips of cyclists crashing and getting back up, bleeding and ragged, to finish a race, alongside clips of soccer/football players whining, claiming non-existent fouls and quitting to "prove"... well, nothing.

Because we all know of otherwise great cyclists who quit some stages or entire races because they felt it was hopeless, not because they were injured. And we've all seen players in soccer, football, baseball, etc., get back in the game after painful injuries. I remember Dallas Cowboys receiver Drew Pearson vomiting twice on the sidelines and getting back into the game. Nolan Ryan taking a line drive in the mouth and continuing to pitch with blood pouring down his face (not to mention clobbering a hitter who was foolish enough to charge the mound against Ryan).

Arguably the toughest athletes are boxers and martial artists because those are the only sports that are inherently about injuring someone else and inflicting pain. In every other sport pain and injuries are incidental to the sport, not the primary focus. If bike racing involved crashing at least once every three minutes, getting up in less than 60 seconds and doing it again and again, sure, I'd agree that cyclists were among the toughest athletes.

I've been an amateur boxer and cyclist. I've watched a lot of boxing, including sparring guys I knew since they teenagers who went on to become world champs. I've never seen a boxer who was physiologically "better" after his mid to late 20s. I just doesn't happen. But if they survive that long without serious injuries or head trauma they usually become craftier. They've lost a slight step in quickness, but make up for it with better timing -- they read opponents and anticipate better. It may seem like they're quicker, but they aren't. They just make better use of their physical tools. But if they hang around the game too long they inevitably lose that slight edge in reflexes and quickness to the point where reading an opponent and timing no longer matter. If the body is too slow to react, it doesn't matter if they can read the opponent like a cliched book.

But I will say that cycling demands a high tolerance for discomfort and pain, even without crashing. As a boxer I never felt the kind of pain I do routinely on hard rides. The adrenaline and focus needed to box tend to make fighters oblivious to pain. We feel it during training, but rarely during a match. I remember being cut pretty badly below one eye and wondering how that happened. It didn't hurt. My coach told me the other guy was repeatedly using his forearms and elbows. That pissed me off so I went for the knockout, and knocked the guy down several times but couldn't put him away. Only real injury I ever experienced in amateur boxing. The rest were just a few bruises and we don't even notice any pain during a fight.

But every time I go for interval or FTP training, or join a fast club's group ride it hurts. Mentally, it's easy to quit. But I've felt far worse pain in the years after a 2001 car wreck. So bicycling pain is nothing in comparison -- burning legs and lungs. But I have quit a couple of group rides, not because it hurt -- that alone wasn't bad, I've been in more pain on solo training rides. But when I saw the group vanish over a hill 400 yards away I knew it was hopeless. It wasn't a group ride anymore. It was just me and I'd rather choose another route at my own speed. So rather than continuing to push on to the regroup point at the halfway mark, I'd quit the group ride and go do my own thing. Often I ride farther than I would have with the group, but not at the same extreme margin of my tolerance for discomfort.

And I was tempted to quit on Thursday's group ride, but the group organizer dropped back to tow me along. I drafted him a bit until I caught my breath, then we mostly ride alongside and chatted. It took my mind off the discomfort and discouragement. When I could actually carry on a conversation (albeit with a lot of gasping and wheezing), I realized I wasn't really at my physical limit. I was at my mental limit... or thought I was.

That's the tough part about cycling. If it's a race or fast club ride and you get dropped, you're pretty much on your own. With martial arts you get a break every few minutes for some advice and encouragement from a coach. And in boxing you don't really know for certain how you're doing. In a close match you need some feedback from an observer to either reassure you that your game plan is working, or you need to step it up. In a bike race or group ride, you know when you're not doing well. The other folks are off in the distance and getting smaller every second.

So I suspect the real key to victory for cyclists in their mid to late 20s and even 30s is the mental game, being able to push the body to accomplish what the younger mind didn't believe could be done.

canklecat

Very true. My adopted "cousin" (we have the same last name, same heritage from Wales, no idea whether we're actually related) is in London. We've been online friends for more than 10 years and have gotten to the point where we give each other ***** in that way only friends can get away with. And he can be mercilessly sarcastic about B.S. But it's just that style of communication. Some Australians are the same way.

It's closer to the old style New York City style of banter I remember from my childhood in the '60s, when everyone seemed to talk like tough guys and were blunt, but it didn't mean they disliked you. As kids we played a game calling "ranking", just another version of playing the dozens. You swap insults back and forth until the other guy can't think of a good retort. It's oral sparring to test mental quickness, toughness and to see which of you is the most cool headed under pressure. It's not unique to New York, mostly the result of a diverse culture that brought the game over from other nations.

It's very different from the typical Texas and Southern style, which is usually superficially civil and polite, but filled with passive-aggressive games and insincerity.

Play the dozens or get into an insult contest with a Texan and they're likely to sputter and grab a gun rather than use their wit to retort. So I don't play that game anymore here.

miamijim

Or the West Coast. My SIL can talk forever without saying anything

Formula 1 had the same problem, drivers were dropping weight due to minimum weight regulations. F1 upped the minimum and driver weights didn't matter any more.

canklecat

Yeah, that's why I continue to support stringent PED testing for amateurs. Keep the amateurs reasonably level and accessible.

As an amateur cyclist I know my limitations, and it has nothing to do with body fat. I'd bet I'm the leanest guy of the 50+ group I ride with (some of the women are very lean and strong riders), and the slowest. I get dropped on every climb, even by guys who are at least 50 lbs overweight. I don't have the aerobic capacity and never will (too much lung damage from pneumonia as a kid, and self inflicted by smoking, even though I quit 20 years ago).

But pros, meh... they should know what they're getting themselves into. Legalizing or at least decriminalizing PEDs would promote safer methods with more rigorous standards. As with automobile racing, for all we know this approach might result in some beneficial health research that benefits us all. Elite athletes are perfect lab rats for investigating the potential of the human body and mind. Just do it above board, with fully informed participants.

canklecat

Zackly. Southerners are the masters of passive-aggressive communication. Bless their hearts.

It took me years and quite a few scraps and scrapes to learn to tame my barbed tongue in bantering with fellow Texans. I grew up all wrong in New York as a kid in the 1960s, so when I returned to Texas to stay, I hadn't learned the culture.

DMC707

I'll stick to Grant

DMC707

@canklecat. Thats a good point above regarding the older athlete's more disciplined ability to endure discomfort, but wouldnt this ability alone conspire to help an older athlete achieve higher real world performance than he possibly would have 7-10 years earlier, when the vo2 max may genuinely have been a few points higher?

Interesting debate for sure.

I served in an elite branch of the military in my late teens and early to mid twenties, followed by a success in several 2 wheeled disciplines, motorized and non motorized when i got out, --- now in my mid forties, injuries have taken a toll and i frequently wake up stiff and with limited mobility

On the flip side is a good friend who was a stoner/slacker in his younger years and didnt start exercising until his late thirties. Now at 45, the guy clicks off enviable 5k times and is consistently near the top on his local strava gravel rides, --- while i am now content to walk on the treadmill and toodle along in the woods on my mountain bike at a relaxed pace

Different analogy to be sure, because neither one of us was ever at the top step of elite athletics, but i have seemingly burned a lot of matches on my way to 45 and have a quality of life to show for it, while this guy keeps getting better and better because he didnt beat himself down in his youth

texaspandj

It's generally accepted that "Endurance athletes" (barring injury) don't peak until their late 20s or early 30s.

Just a reminder that Lance was a phenom.
The success he had in cycling after his bout with cancer "I" attribute to PED is weight loss and quick recovery. Everything else "I" attribute to physiology and psychology.
When he was 12 or 13 he won the Rainbow iron kids triathlon championship.
When he was 15 he broke the course record in Texas's oldest triathlon. The only person to go under 2 hours in that particular 1/4 Ironman distance race.
When he was 16 he lowered his record on that same course then rode his bike home....109 miles away.
When he was 17 he raced in the pro division and was able to stay with World champion triathletes. In his hometown pro race he was near the lead and moving up when he flatted and threw his bike across the street out of frustration.
That same year he was in the top ten in races with World class athletes around the world.
While in high school He was offered numerous college scholarships from top schools for track based solely on his VO2 max as his running was only mediocre by college standards. He had the highest VO2 max recorded at a Dallas health center he was tested at.
Around 17 or 18 he was recruited by that junior cycling federation and went to "try out" and train at their camp.He did well but what impressed the coaches the most was after a full day of training, he would go on a run while all the other junior riders were resting.
Around 18 he became committed to cycling and occasionally competed in triathlons. He was in a crit race here, when he alone lapped the field and won.
The biggest difference from triathlon racing and bike racing that "I" witnessed was his eventual weight loss and his much higher cadence.
Hard to say which one he resembled more, He loved winning or He Ha*ed losing. I think the latter.
That's all I know about Lance except the conversations I had with him.But I'll tell you this, if I had to Fight 5 guys and could pick only One cyclist to help me it would be Lance...No doubt!

Ghrumpy

Exactly so.

They're also like race car drivers in that every race series has a rule book that everyone gets before the season. A formula, if you will. The first thing the engineers and drivers do is start looking for ways to find an advantage that the rules don't forbid. It's generally not against the rules to have more power, only how you get it that matters.

For the purposes of this discussion, the UCI rule book outlines what substances are banned, and the threshold for detection. In essence, saying you can use some chemicals, only in certain amounts, and you'll be subject to tests for those chemicals. The evidentiary basis of enforcement was that if they can't detect it, they can't prove you used it. In other words, a presumption of innocence. But then they changed the rules retroactively to allow other kinds of "evidence" to be used against alleged PED takers.

The problem with pro cycling and doping is that those tasked with enforcement couldn't keep up with technology advances that both created more power and could hide how it was created. Cabn't fault the riders completely for that. It's the UCI's fault as much as anyone's because it's a matter of resource allotment more than morality.

tungsten

+1

Lance Armstrong admits to doping proving Betsy Andreu's previous claims true | CBC Radio

McBTC

Another problem is that everyone else got caught and rolled over on LA along the way, during which time LA kept to his story that he never took drugs while continuing to demonize everyone who called him out on it as if hey were the only cheaters and liars (so, everyone hated his guts for that)... all of which begs the question that, since all of the top finishers were found guilty at various times of taking EPO, amphetamines, steroids, etc., how far down the list of finishers do you go to find and anoint a winner, especially considering LA was never actually caught cheating? Just give all of victories to Greg Lemond even though he didn't compete in any of them?

DIMcyclist

So... I hope you're not implying that if LA didn't try to bully his way out of the situation, it would somehow be okay for the King Cheat to get away with cheating, just because "everbody wuz doin' it?"

And- admittedly- isn't giving "... all of victories to Greg Lemond even though he didn't compete in any of them?" sort of an unrealistically absurd solution to the problem?

None of us are perfect beings and consequently we create imperfect systems, and find imperfect solutions to imperfect situations. That said, we should strive to do do our best- to try to live up to the standard of our best intentions, or else there's no point to them to begin with. It's like lying about Strava- why have it if you don't believe in some kind of empirical standard? Why not just constantly lie about your mileage?

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To create an equally absurd & unrealistic example to highlight the inherent flaws with the aforementioned 'Texas' model (which sees "winning at all costs" as a virtue, regardless of the rules)... Why not just have a team of guys armed with auto-shotguns blast away at the peloton, and whoever lives, wins? That's to say, if you're going to ignore the laws, the rules, why not get rid of them completely & just go straight to Road Warrior-style death matches: "Two men enter; one man leaves?" LA &... Oh, let's say- Contador- can have it out by bashing their bikes over each others' heads. After each chugging a vat of "tainted meat," of course.

Wouldn't that be fun? It'll be just like pro wrestling (imagine the name-calling! Cipo would surely win every time).

Meaningful or lasting change doesn't happen at anyone's convenience; not yours, not mine, no one's; and no change is ever permanent or solution perfect: the idea is to keep things as ethical (or, "clean" in this instance) as possible, for as long as possible. If that takes wiping out the scores for 20 races, then wipe 'em out; eventually, either the rules will change, allowing everyone to dope to the gills, or people will get bored with it all & watch something else; after which the all glittering prizes- and the incentive to win- at all costs- will also fade, and you'll have a more-or-less clean race again... because nobody will care about it.

Except the purists.


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McBTC

I guess you can believe professional cycling during the 80s was clean if you exclude amphetamines but the 90s were dirty with drugs... even in the Olympics and even during the last Olympics... the Russian curling competitors caught doping? I Googled, however, that an Olympic death was, "linked to athletic drug use" that, "occurred at the Rome Games of 1960." I didn't see a movement about stripping Marco Pantani's Giro and Tour wins in the 90s. Banning LA for life is such a joke-- he can't even compete in a triathlon? Obviously a bunch of hypocritical moralizers tearing at LA to make themselves feel superior.

dgodave

"Lance Armstrong"

Does anyone even believe thats a real name? Come on. Its too good. Obviously made-up.

McBTC

You mean, Lance Edward Gunderson? According to CNN...