I've seen people here amazingly ID a frame and I'm sure your's will be too.Welcome to bikeforums. A good wipe down of the frame could reveal an otherwise faint SN. Also measure the distance between the holes in your headtube. It had a headbadge on it at one time and I've seen frames identified that way also.

:lol: My thoughts exactly!

This is one of the more intriguing ID threads I've seen... will be watching with interest. A very cool bike, whatever it might be.

I find it odd that there is only one Fender Eyelet.

Agreed. Whatever this bike is, it was pretty nice way back when.

When Is A "Not A Paramount" A Paramount?
 

Could it be a Wastyn? Very similar lug and finish work, and it would explain the Paramount connection?

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...-1-jpg.523997/

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...-1-jpg.523998/

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/wh...me-fork.30131/

And similar cable stops under the top tube, and rounded finish at the seat stay to RD braze.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/ccbf7c111c03...&alloworigin=1

http://www.wastyn.com/museum.html

I was hoping when I quoted you it would copy your pictures. :foo:

Take a look at the front fork drop out ends on the two Chicago Paramounts I've owned. The coper/gold one is a '66 and the red one a '71. Each is rounded, nicely filled and filed before chroming. The ends on your fork blades end in a point.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...rkdropouts.jpg

Compare the rear dropouts. Yours has a small hole above the RD mount. Also the shape and filling were the stays meet the rear dropout is different.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...6dropouts2.jpg

Finally, compare the top of the seat stay caps. They don't look the same.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...oldsdecals.jpg

I'm certain nutpower's bike is not Paramount. However, it does appear to be a very nice frame.

Doubtful that the drop has been replaced....if so very costly to re-chrome the entire frame and then do a repaint, most likely builder used what they had at the time to complete the build.
Nice quality frame as others have said probably not a Paramount.
Ben

Sure looks like it. Possibly a Watsyn parts bin build. He had access to all the parts, and decals. Perhaps it is svt4cam4.6 's headtube that never had a badge. Two dropouts which happened to be around. Perhaps an intentional build which could be recognized by those in the know.
Would there have been extra Nervex bb shells kicking around after they were discontinued? Almost certainly.

The right rear dropout, with a hole for the Campagnolo "Sport" derailleur spring, suggests it could be much older than that, perhaps 1950s.

https://www.bikeforums.net/attachmen...1&d=1524203950

The lack of a serial number on the left rear dropout does seem anomalous, but I'm not familiar with really old Paramounts.

It certainly looks much older than 1970s to me too. ^^^ Old school dropout with a spring hole is a dead giveaway. My first thought was very early 60s, perhaps much earlier. That would also explain why the stay end style is different than the bike boom era Paramounts most of us are familiar with. I'm not that familiar with really old Paramounts either, but I know what the late 60s and 70s ones look like. Just because this frame doesn't look like them, doesn't mean it isn't a Paramount.

Paramount badge remained the same from beginning through the mid seventies. I have a 39, 40, 51, 67, 70, 73, badges all the same.

Didn’t Raleigh make a frame with similar Nervex lugs? Holes look like they could match a big bird logo headbadge.

The Raleigh badges I've seen lately of the heron variety have had three holes

I know just enough about Paramounts to be dangerous. As a what if lets say maybe it is an early Paramount and somewhere along the way it lost it's circular head tube badge. When paint time came along the long oval Schwinn badges were plentiful so they filled the original badge holes and drilled the present holes? Oh and the original fork got pranged and was replaced.
discuss!

Lovely frame, but serial number on bottom bracket is a big "not a Paramount", 70's Paramount's often had Prugnat BB lugs, with the more ornate Nervex on the top, seat, and head tubes. My 78 does. I do agree this is a pre 70's frame, and still does not match a Paramount serial number (on the bottom bracket, and very long numbers). BUT who really knows. You can message the folks at Waterford, but I am pretty sure, they will agree, the BB serial number rules out Paramount.

Again, a well crafted frame, worth the research.

Good Luck

Big "serial no." is the Nervex no. not serial. That being said, still no serial no. at all yet.

What about say factory anomaly, employee build, down low build, "special" custom build, off the books without serial no. build, maybe with standard headbadge?

I know some believe that certain era's, production runs, special requests came out sometimes way better than the regular production. I have never seen one that was this clean at the dropouts, but I have seen a few that were much nicer than the average ones you normally see.

A pseudo parts bin build seems highly likely here as it really looks like the dropouts are original albeit apparently mismatched. Maybe done on purpose to mount something only on that side?

I know, still way wrong fork crown, but a lot of the rest still looks plausible to me.

What do I know? :foo:

Does No One Actually Read Through The Previous Posts?
 

Heisenberg's Paramount

That's not a serial number on the BB. If it was, then it would certainly indicate it was a Wastyn. That those markings remain, and were not removed, may support the suggestion that is a Wastyn, and hence both a Paramount and not a Paramount.

https://thecabe.com/forum/attachment...-1-jpg.524001/

"...there are no serial numbers or stamps on it. The only numbers are on the bottom, which I learned are the Nervex angles and such for the tubes." https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/wh...me-fork.30131/

Heisenberg Paramount. Har har. :lol:

Wastyn sounds like the strongest theory so far.

I am 100% sure not a paramount

Wastyn still has a store in Chicago run by his son. Oscar Wastyn built Paramount`s too. You could try contacting the store for information on the frame to see if his dad built it or not? There are plenty of examples of his frames on display in his store.

http://www.wastyn.com/

If we were all so perfect
 

I AM SO SORRY! Somehow I missed your link buried! I think you nailed it. Very cool!

White--Wastyn...kind of makes it Paramount then, at least in spirit?

Guess you were winding up as I was typing as I was pointing out exactly the same thing.

So are you saying the presence of the Nervex no. has some bearing, did some remove it?

FWIW, check out this thread on a (supposedly) 1957 Paramount 'Tourist' from last year. Stay ends are rounded.

From what I've read, it sounds like Oscar Wastyn was still sporadically building Paramounts during this era.

MUSEUM

Shows older Paramount`s and Wastyn frames. Seems he did the dropouts any way he felt like doing them at the time?

As to decal access in antiquity...........

My 1970 Paramount was repainted in the late 70's (educated guess) and had factory decals. Richard says that my frame was not a factory repaint, so somebody had access to the correct decals even back then.

His records indicate that once it left, it never came back. My brother got it in 1983, and the paint looked well used by then.

All For One, And...
 

I owe you, (and others I am sure), an apology; I should not have been so snarky.



We posted minutes apart. I would have deleted mine for being redundant, but with the photo I thought it brought a little something extra to the table?

I don't know that other builders using that lug removed the Nervex numbers, but I sure don't see them often.



His track bikes do seem to have some consistency. The chain stays are rounded while the seat stays are pointy. Outside the track bikes, there seems to be more variance.


As an aside, I've always found it interesting that the quintessential "American" quality bicycle was designed by a Belgian immigrant.