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BB service

Old 05-04-18, 07:15 AM
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seedsbelize 
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BB service

Good morning All,
When servicing the bb yesterday, on my 84 Letour Luxe, I changed out the loose balls on the drive side for a set of caged bearings. Now that it's back together it will no longer shift onto the big ring (of three). Would those caged bearings alone change the shaft length enough to cause this?
TIA
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Old 05-04-18, 07:25 AM
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Caged bearings should not make a difference. But is your bb symetric or is one side longer than the other?
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Old 05-04-18, 07:35 AM
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Drive side is longer
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Old 05-04-18, 08:37 AM
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Going from loose balls to caged or vice versa shouldn't make any difference at all, so long as the balls are the same size.

Is there any chance your spindle was installed backward before you serviced the bottom bracket? If it was, and you corrected the problem, the chainrings would be moved outboard a few mm, potentially causing the problem you describe.

If I had the bike in front of me, I might start by measuring the chainline. If the crank spins smoothly and the chainline's good, leave the bottom bracket alone and focus on the derailleur.
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Old 05-04-18, 08:50 AM
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I've encountered this when the right side crankarm didn't get seated as far up the spindle taper during reassembly.

I would first stand on the pedals and jump a couple of times, then turn the cranks 180 degrees and repeat that. The spindle nuts (notorious for providing lower press-fit force for any given torque level versus bolts) are likely the culprit, so a retorquing after stressing the spindle press-fit as above should move the crankarms inward sufficiently to re-validate your original front derailer adjustments. Shifting should thus be restored, though it is normal to have to re-visit the front derailer settings after the reinstallation of any square-taper drive-side crankarm.
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Old 05-04-18, 10:42 AM
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Thanks all. It does appear that the crank is not seating all the way. It is currently still in the stand, and the derailleur is not the problem. I may just go ahead and pull it apart again just to see.
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Old 05-04-18, 10:46 AM
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You did turn the caged bearings the correct way, right? It almost looks backwards if you don't take a closer look.
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Old 05-04-18, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
You did turn the caged bearings the correct way, right? It almost looks backwards if you don't take a closer look.
If the cages were in backwards, the spindle wouldn't turn smoothly and the crank would sit more inboard. It sounds from his description of slow upshifting that the crank is still a little to the outboard side of where it was originally.
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Old 05-04-18, 11:47 AM
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QUOTE=Ex Pres;20322256]You did turn the caged bearings the correct way, right? It almost looks backwards if you don't take a closer look.[/QUOTE]

If the cages were in backwards, the spindle wouldn't turn smoothly and the crank would sit more inboard. It sounds from his description of slow upshifting that the crank is still a little to the outboard side of where it was originally.

Likewise with a backwards spindle, the right crank would now be too far inboard, but it seems to be too far outboard in this case.

Is the spindle in fact one of the "nutted" variety with M10 threaded stud ends? Was any torque specification used btw? The common 8mm bolts are supposed to get about 30 ft-lbs, which feels like a lot and is about the same torque level one would use to secure a threaded bb cup! Cassette lockrings are another place with a surprisingly high torque specification, again about 30 foot pounds!

Because of the larger thread pitch, and with friction forces at both the threads and "washer" surface acting at larger diameters than with the 8mm bolt-type fasteners, these nuts don't do nearly as good of a job of pulling the cranks up the tapers as the fine-threaded 8mm bolts with smooth-face washers do. Heavily tightening them in one shot risks fracturing their threads however, since the spindle is not made to the same standards as normal high-strength bolts. So I always torque these nuts at least twice, before and after applying "pedaling" torque from one crankarm through the spindle to the other crankarm. The nuts can then be observed to have lost a lot of tightness (tension on the studs), which resulted from the crankarms migrating further up the tapers. Don't worry about this enlarging the tapers in the arms, it won't, but a loosening nut sure will!

Nutted spindle shown with (among other issues, LOL) fractured threads, all too common with this type!

Second day in a row that the image editor refuses to work in an existing reply or edit box. I'll open a new reply box (see below) and try posting the photo there...

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Old 05-04-18, 11:49 AM
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Old 05-04-18, 12:13 PM
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I'm gonna take it for a spin in a few minutes, and see if I can seat it better by that method. I am a non-user of torque wrenches. I learned correct orientation of caged bearings from doing headsets, so I know that is correct also. It is the nutted variety, and I hope that turn out to be the issue. Will report back.
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Old 05-04-18, 12:39 PM
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A little comic relief here. I stirruped up, threw my leg over, and couldn't find the pedal. They were both in the same plane. A first for me. I put it back right, finished the ride, and now have it back on the stand. The crank seated better this time, but the derailleur bottoms out without reaching the big ring. Clearly something is wrong inside.
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Old 05-04-18, 01:09 PM
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Mystery solved. The reason I used the caged bearing is because I couldn't find all the loose ones. Just now I removed the nds cup, and there was an extra bearing ball. It must've been hiding in one of the tubes. Anyway, its presence prevented the shaft from properly seating in the nds cup. I am continually amazed at how resilient these old school systems are. Thanks again for all the suggestions.
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Old 05-04-18, 01:45 PM
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I once found a headset ball had fallen between my bike's steer tube and head tube, just couldn't get it adjusted right no matter how many times I tried.

These are our "tequila moments", no?
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Old 05-04-18, 06:05 PM
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I don't know that I'd attempt a loose ball headset installation. Kudos to you if you do it.Headsets can be like that though. But once you figure it out, it's cake.
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Old 05-06-18, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize View Post
I don't know that I'd attempt a loose ball headset installation...
It's not bad. The trick is to turn the frame upside-down when putting balls in the lower cup. Grease the cup, place balls in it, then insert the fork and flip the bike upright.
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