The fine-print rule on brake placement
05-26-18, 10:46 PM
#26
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@jyl is spot on. Cinelli 64s have an aggressive ramp angle (same as 65s/Criteriums) with 66s being less so. If all you have is 64s or all you like is those, then having them set up will probably get you looks as you have noted. Many Japanese drop bars it seems have ramp angles much less aggressive. And obviously Nitto Noodles are dead parallel, which may be the ultimate solution between classic drop bar look, preferred brake lever angle, and drops angle at near horizontal.
SLR-era Shimano brake levers (and more modern Tektros, etc) have far better bar-to-hood transition accommodation, which helps in being able to run both on the hoods and in the drops effectively/comfortably. I end up having the drops a few degrees up from horizontal, otherwise I feel like I'm "falling downhill" when I'm in the drops. But, of course, not too many degrees, because horizontal drops (with sloping ramps) are dead sexy.
SLR-era Shimano brake levers (and more modern Tektros, etc) have far better bar-to-hood transition accommodation, which helps in being able to run both on the hoods and in the drops effectively/comfortably. I end up having the drops a few degrees up from horizontal, otherwise I feel like I'm "falling downhill" when I'm in the drops. But, of course, not too many degrees, because horizontal drops (with sloping ramps) are dead sexy.
05-27-18, 05:55 AM
#27
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Seems like you have the wrong bars. You want flatter ramps, that’s not what Cinelli bars are about, so you have to position them awkwardly to compensate. Like ROS suggested, if you want flat ramps and don’t like rando bars, Noodles might be your ticket. I have them on 2 of my 3 road bikes now (135 rando on the 3rd) and I will never go back to Cinelli bars, although it’s hard to argue with the looks - that is, when set up as intended.
edit - you might also check out the VO Course bars.
edit - you might also check out the VO Course bars.
Last edited by due ruote; 05-27-18 at 05:59 AM.
05-27-18, 09:51 AM
#28
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@jyl
You make some good points, but I strongly disagree with this one. White cotton tape should be unscrupulously dirty and at least partly shredded for maximum style.
Joking of course but this really was a thing, kind of like thrashed blue jeans. Alas though, I'm too old to appreciate dirty torn tape anymore myself, and take it off when it gets too ripe.
Incidentally, here's the VO Maes bars -- whatever they call them, on my PX-10. As you can see the ramps and the drops are parallel. I like the levers a bit higher up on these, to get a smoother transition to the hoods. I appears to me that these bars have been optimized to work with modern brifters, which is slightly ironic. The corners are a bit tight in the radius to make the ramps as long as possible. BTW when did people start saying ramps? Never heard that until a few years ago.
These bars are 26.0 so will work with newer Cinelli stems, but the older Cinelli stems are 26.4 and will require shims.
You make some good points, but I strongly disagree with this one. White cotton tape should be unscrupulously dirty and at least partly shredded for maximum style.
Joking of course but this really was a thing, kind of like thrashed blue jeans. Alas though, I'm too old to appreciate dirty torn tape anymore myself, and take it off when it gets too ripe.Incidentally, here's the VO Maes bars -- whatever they call them, on my PX-10. As you can see the ramps and the drops are parallel. I like the levers a bit higher up on these, to get a smoother transition to the hoods. I appears to me that these bars have been optimized to work with modern brifters, which is slightly ironic. The corners are a bit tight in the radius to make the ramps as long as possible. BTW when did people start saying ramps? Never heard that until a few years ago.
These bars are 26.0 so will work with newer Cinelli stems, but the older Cinelli stems are 26.4 and will require shims.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 05-27-18 at 10:07 AM.
05-27-18, 10:01 AM
#29
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Which is why I pay immense attention to HT/ST angles, TT length, stem length, and making sure my saddle setback (the vertical plane of sit bone contact to the center of the BB spindle) is on the money. I have a narrow preferred reach range while at the same time not allowing a stem to go below 100mm (for proportion's/aesthetic's sake). This Masi is at the long end of the range, so I am well aware of comfort. Thankfully, the bike's ride is sublime, which makes it worth it.
05-27-18, 11:06 AM
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Which is why I pay immense attention to HT/ST angles, TT length, stem length, and making sure my saddle setback (the vertical plane of sit bone contact to the center of the BB spindle) is on the money. I have a narrow preferred reach range while at the same time not allowing a stem to go below 100mm (for proportion's/aesthetic's sake). This Masi is at the long end of the range, so I am well aware of comfort. Thankfully, the bike's ride is sublime, which makes it worth it.
Mounting the levers high on the bars makes the grip distance from the drops to the levers larger than designed, making it very hard for people with average hands to get their fingers around the lever with their hands in the drops.
05-27-18, 11:57 AM
#31
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My two cents.
To start with, many of us are riding vintage race bikes but without the body and flexibility of the 25 y/o racers who were meant to ride them back in the day. So it makes sense that we may not be able to set them up as they were when ridden in anger. Let's just get that out of the way.
So, first forget about the levers. Are the bars how you like them? If you ride on the tops then the bar rotation doesn't matter. If you ride on the ramps then you may prefer the bars rotated up so the ramps are flatter. If you ride on the drops or in the hooks, then you'll want the drops not too far from flat, so your hands don't slip off when hitting an unexpected bump during a fast descent. Get the bar position right.
Now the levers. The fundamental purpose of brake levers is braking. You need to be able to reach and apply full force to the levers, in a split second, from the hand positions you're most likely to use at speed. A comfortable riding position on the hoods is important but secondary. For me, that means the levers need to be where I can rest a couple fingers on them when in the hooks.
A couple rides with the bars unwrapped and a wrench in the jersey is usually necessary.
Finally, there's looks. Very important but still tertiary. I know it's best to look like LeMond or Hinault but sadly we can't always. Tip - if all else fails, white bar tape, scrupulously clean, always adds a multitude of style points.
To start with, many of us are riding vintage race bikes but without the body and flexibility of the 25 y/o racers who were meant to ride them back in the day. So it makes sense that we may not be able to set them up as they were when ridden in anger. Let's just get that out of the way.
So, first forget about the levers. Are the bars how you like them? If you ride on the tops then the bar rotation doesn't matter. If you ride on the ramps then you may prefer the bars rotated up so the ramps are flatter. If you ride on the drops or in the hooks, then you'll want the drops not too far from flat, so your hands don't slip off when hitting an unexpected bump during a fast descent. Get the bar position right.
Now the levers. The fundamental purpose of brake levers is braking. You need to be able to reach and apply full force to the levers, in a split second, from the hand positions you're most likely to use at speed. A comfortable riding position on the hoods is important but secondary. For me, that means the levers need to be where I can rest a couple fingers on them when in the hooks.
A couple rides with the bars unwrapped and a wrench in the jersey is usually necessary.
Finally, there's looks. Very important but still tertiary. I know it's best to look like LeMond or Hinault but sadly we can't always. Tip - if all else fails, white bar tape, scrupulously clean, always adds a multitude of style points.
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05-27-18, 12:19 PM
#32
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This is also taken into consideration by me when positioning brake levers. The average top-of-the-hood angle needs to be positive (not horizontal) yet at the same time allowing comfortably finger reach when in the drops.
05-27-18, 12:56 PM
#33
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In my opinion, longer brake levers would help...
05-27-18, 01:29 PM
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Just as a general comment, bar makers and lever makers are basing the geometry of their products on the understanding that the straightedge method is going to be used to locate the levers. So it isn't just style, it is a method to make things work right. You can depart from that method, but you should be aware that it will cause other effects that might not be desirable. The best "formula" is to use a bar that fits well with how you want to use it, and certain bars weren't really intended to be turned up so high that the drops are pointed at the rear hub. Racing bars might be a poor fit for touring and vice versa.
05-27-18, 08:12 PM
#35
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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Well, FWIW, I have white bar tape on the PFN10 and it is getting dirty pretty fast, which I consider good. And yellow bar tape on the Grandis and Centurion, and slightly orangish yellow tape on the Tommasini, and all three of them are getting dirty pretty fast. That's the way they are supposed to be, no?
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