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Friction shifter pull ratio?

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Friction shifter pull ratio?

Old 06-10-18, 06:23 PM
  #1  
hokiefyd
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Friction shifter pull ratio?

I'm having trouble finding information on this topic because...well...I'm probably not using the correct terminology. I'm not talking "pull ratio" as in Shimano is 1.7:1 or 2:1, SRAM is 1:1, etc. I'm talking "pull ratio" like in the brake lever world. There are "short pull" brake levers (most conventional ones designed for calipers or cantis) and there are "long pull" brake levers, designed for V brakes or mechanical discs.

What does this have to do with shifters?

My '69 Peugeot PO-18 had Huret down tube shifters, a Simplex rear derailer, and a 5-speed freewheel. I have swapped the derailer for a newer Shimano SIS derailer and I've swapped the wheel for one with a 7-speed cassette. With the original setup, the chain was in the small sprocket with the shifter all the way forward, parallel with the down tube, and I could have the chain in the large sprocket with the shifter pulled back about 100 or so degrees compared with high gear. With my Shimano derailer and 2 additional sprockets, I can get the chain into the largest one, but the shifter is pulled back 180 degrees from rest...that is, it's parallel with the down tube, but facing the crank instead of the fork. I have to pull it back and then press it down with my thumb to get it into low gear. It seems a little goofy like this.

Back to the brake levers, long pull levers pull more cable for the same lever pull distance, right? Is there such a concept for down tube shifters (or even friction shifters in general, such as thumb shifters)? Do shifters exist that pull more cable so that I don't have to have this shifter cable essentially folded back over on itself to be in low gear?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-10-18, 06:46 PM
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Mixing older Huret gear components with non-Huret ones in the same system can be a source of difficulty.

The older Huret gear mechs need more cable movement to effect a given gear change than other brands.

For this reason the "drums" on Huret shift levers are larger in diameter than other makes; this gives more cable movement in a given number of degrees of arc of lever movement.

Trying to operate Huret mechs with non-Huret shift levers means the right lever must be parallel to down tube to get the chain onto the gear block's largest cog.

Conversely, using older Huret shift levers with non-Huret mechs can make the shifting "touchy."

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Old 06-10-18, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hokiefyd View Post
Back to the brake levers, long pull levers pull more cable for the same lever pull distance, right? Is there such a concept for down tube shifters (or even friction shifters in general, such as thumb shifters)? Do shifters exist that pull more cable so that I don't have to have this shifter cable essentially folded back over on itself to be in low gear?

Thanks in advance.
Isn't that what those Simplex "demultiplier" are for?

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Old 06-10-18, 07:24 PM
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Similarly, SunTour rear derailleurs require more cable pull than most of the conventional parallelogram units, and evidently also more than the Huret Allvit.

When I put Schwinn TwinStiks (Huret) on my wife's bike, I had to file the right lever stop a bit to hit all 5 gears with a SunTour VGT.
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Old 06-10-18, 08:09 PM
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I.ve run into the "issue" with my old Campy DT shifters (bumpy style), and an Ultegra (6600?) RD. It takes the full tube to tube range to shift 9s, although, with an inline adjuster, I might get slightly improved range if I needed it. But, it seems to be stable, so I haven't worried about it.

I was experimenting with friction bar end shifters with the new Shimano MTB (1.2) rear derailleurs. I have some vintage Suntour and Shimano shifters (through bolt, silver). The Suntour shifters only will do about 8 out of 11 or so sprockets. The Shimano shifter does the full range of 11 speeds barely, with slightly more lever travel than the Suntour, but one has to overshift at the relaxed (small sproket) end, and the spring is too springy to allow it to hold itself in place well. The groove also extends mostly around the Shimano shift lever. This means that I could probably file the slot to allow more range of motion. The grove on the Suntour lever is interrupted by a black steel plate, and it is unclear if it would work with cutting the slot further... I'll have to try it. Perhaps I could file a partial slot into the metal plate, or ignore the slot for the last 1/4 turn.

Microshift Mega 11 (indexed) bar end shifters will shift the Shimano 11s (and presumably SRAM 1:1, 11s). I have one on order. I don't know if it does friction.

There are some really big Suntour stem shifters. But, I'm not sure if they are designed for a restricted range of movement. For example only moving them 1/4 turn. Nonetheless, they could probably be modified to work with any derailleur.
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Old 06-10-18, 08:46 PM
  #6  
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Hi,

I have the same issue with my SR series Cannondale. It has a Shimano 8 speed cassette, Campagnolo Athena RD and the original Suntour power shifters on the down tube. Full forward for high gear and all the way back for lowest. Shifts great, but that's a lot of lever throw.

Cheers,

Van
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Old 06-11-18, 07:08 AM
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Using a more modern shifter with a larger barrel will alleviate this problem. For Shimano components, I've found that the 6207 (Shimano 600) friction shifters work very, very well. 10 speed shifting uses about 150 degrees of shifter movement.
Note that not all 6207 shifters being sold on eBay are compatible with standard down tube braze-ons, as the earlier ones were intended for Shimano's proprietary braze on shape and used 4.5mm bolts.
You could also use almost any 1050 through 7700 Shimano/Dura Ace indexed downtube shifter in friction mode. If it had enough travel to shift across the cassette or freewheel when indexed, it will easily do the same in friction.
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Old 06-11-18, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

For this reason the "drums" on Huret shift levers are larger in diameter than other makes; this gives more cable movement in a given number of degrees of arc of lever movement.
Wow, I always thought the reverse was true; I recall a friend replacing a long-cage Huret Luxe with a Suntour Honor on his Raleigh in the early 1970's, and it barely worked, with about 180 degrees of lever travel like the OP's. I need to rummage around in the parts bin to see if I have some Huret levers and can measure.

I think the Simplex gadget, I have one of those unused, would make the problem worse, no?
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Old 06-11-18, 10:21 AM
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@tiger1964, you are right. @juvela has it backwards. The drum on Huret shifters was smaller than any other brand. It was largest on SunTour shifters.
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Old 06-11-18, 10:39 AM
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For clarity sake there are two sizes of Freres Huret drum.

The big drum is on the older shifters as would come with Allvit, Luxe, Luxe Touring, Luxe Super Touring & Svelto model rear mechs.

The Jubilee ensemble introduced in 1973 has a more normal/typcial size drum.

By about 1978 all Huret gear ensembles were using a more normal size shift lever drum.

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Old 06-11-18, 11:00 AM
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Thanks, all! The latest info on Huret at the bottom of the thread correlates with what I'm experiencing -- it seems that the drum is small enough that I'm just barely able to pull enough cable to span the 7 sprockets. It was not a problem with only 5, and it works with 7 -- it's just a little goofy. I'm glad I asked, and I appreciate your replies -- I didn't know that these shifters had different pull lengths, and I learned some new terminology: drum or barrel diameter!
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Old 06-11-18, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
Isn't that what those Simplex "demultiplier" are for?

No. The demultiplicator relay reduces cable pull at the derailleur. They were usually used with Simplex bar end shifters that had very large diameter barrels.
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Old 06-11-18, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@tiger1964, you are right. @juvela has it backwards. The drum on Huret shifters was smaller than any other brand. It was largest on SunTour shifters.
Aye, and I obviously agree, but the Hurets look bigger. The outer diameter is large, but is "cut deep" and where the cable rests is dramatically smaller; you can kinda see it in this photo (maybe done to give greater surface "friction area"?):


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Old 06-11-18, 03:20 PM
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I found the same issue when I replaced my Campy NR downtube shifters with Simplex Retrofriction (with a NR rd). It takes noticeably more lever movement to shift - not so much that I can't hit all 6 cogs, but enough to take some getting used to.
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