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Trompe l'oeil pedals

Old 07-16-18, 01:42 PM
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Trompe l'oeil pedals

One modern bit of technology I have embraced to a degree is clipless pedals - partly due to frustration in finding replacement shoes/cleats to work with my old pedals. But I don't like the look on a C&V bike. So...

Here's an experiment, probably going on my 1961 Gitane work-in-progress. The pedals are Shimano M-324, designed to be SPD on one side and to be used with "normal" shoes on the other. I ordered a set and messed around with them. I reversed the cages to have them face the SPD side, opposite of how they came; I also had to put the right cage on the left pedal and vice-versa, and still I had to tweak the cages in a vice to get the bolts to line up. The SPD assembly on the pedal does stick up far enough to engage the shoe. The half toeclips are from Velo Orange and barely long enough with the clunky SPD/MTB shoes I've been riding on -- I want to locate a set of SPD shoes that lace up and are more trim and do not look "modern", I've seen pictures on-line of Shimano CT-5, now if I could just find them locally to try them on, and in black. Somewhere I thought I had a set of the metal tabs for the rear of pedal to facilitate flipping the pedal into position, someone here posted a photo and link a while back but I probably forgot to order some and I think they'll be needed in this application.
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Old 07-16-18, 02:31 PM
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That's a great idea. I suffered thru two Eroicas with old school toe clips as required. 1st year I went full clips, straps and cleats on Vittoria 1976 shoes. Fell twice, banged up my knee. This year I went with the VO half clips like you have, but got a pair of Louis Garneau Nickel SPD shoes, $39 at Nashbar. I left the SPD cleats in place because they are recessed, and didn't interfere with the Eroica "legal" Campy pedals and clips. I missed not having the cleat attachment, but didn't miss falling this time. Still, I couldn't really pull the pedals uphill as I'm used to doing on full SPD pedals and cleats. These shoes were great for walking the Eroica hills, as well as for riding. Great idea you have. I might give them a try next time. Here's the Nickel shoes. They come with a set of black laces too. I grew up riding and even racing with toe clips and old school cleats. I ride for fun now, and toe clips are not fun for me any more. The second pic was taken with my bike hanging on the rack, I don't really ride that way.

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Old 07-16-18, 03:46 PM
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I never understood the perceived purpose of cleats. Just seems like an annoyance to possibly improve your chances of injury. Vintage style shoes and cages seem more than adequate.
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Old 07-16-18, 07:11 PM
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Slightspeed:

That's a big OUCH on the falls, although I actually had more comfort with 'trad' cleats/shoes than the clipless, at least at first. My wife recently switched to clipless and went down twice, but I think she's acclimated now.

I like those shoes too but a quick on-line check shows the black is not readily available, having gone on to different colors. That said, the overall style is out there and I figure I'll find something that looks tolerably retro.

By the way, these M-324 pedals are heavy, within a few grams of Campy Record chrome-cage road pedals according to the digital kitchen scale. Probably the steel cage is a big part of that; on-line I've seen a Shimano Deore MTB pedal whose cages attaches with bolts that look the same, and that cage is alloy. If I found a set and the C-to-C dimension on the bolts is the same, I could de-anodize those, polish, and attach to these pedals. We'll see.

Not having experienced Eroica first hand, somehow I suspect "looks retro" is not good enough, if anyone looks closely.

Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
That's a great idea. I suffered thru two Eroicas with old school toe clips as required. 1st year I went full clips, straps and cleats on Vittoria 1976 shoes. Fell twice, banged up my knee. This year I went with the VO half clips like you have, but got a pair of Louis Garneau Nickel SPD shoes, $39 at Nashbar. I left the SPD cleats in place because they are recessed, and didn't interfere with the Eroica "legal" Campy pedals and clips. I missed not having the cleat attachment, but didn't miss falling this time. Still, I couldn't really pull the pedals uphill as I'm used to doing on full SPD pedals and cleats. These shoes were great for walking the Eroica hills, as well as for riding. Great idea you have. I might give them a try next time. Here's the Nickel shoes. They come with a set of black laces too. I grew up riding and even racing with toe clips and old school cleats. I ride for fun now, and toe clips are not fun for me any more. The second pic was taken with my bike hanging on the rack, I don't really ride that way.
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Old 07-16-18, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
Slightspeed:

That's a big OUCH on the falls, although I actually had more comfort with 'trad' cleats/shoes than the clipless, at least at first. My wife recently switched to clipless and went down twice, but I think she's acclimated now.

I like those shoes too but a quick on-line check shows the black is not readily available, having gone on to different colors. That said, the overall style is out there and I figure I'll find something that looks tolerably retro.

By the way, these M-324 pedals are heavy, within a few grams of Campy Record chrome-cage road pedals according to the digital kitchen scale. Probably the steel cage is a big part of that; on-line I've seen a Shimano Deore MTB pedal whose cages attaches with bolts that look the same, and that cage is alloy. If I found a set and the C-to-C dimension on the bolts is the same, I could de-anodize those, polish, and attach to these pedals. We'll see.

Not having experienced Eroica first hand, somehow I suspect "looks retro" is not good enough, if anyone looks closely.
The only fall I took with clipless was once, due to dropping the chain, pointed uphill with no forward speed. Not the pedals' fault. I found the clipless transition pretty painless, going back to clips and straps after 20 years was the hard part. I love the old Campy pedals but they are in the parts bin where they belong. I've tried Shimano Road SPD, and Speedplay, but old standby mtn SPDs are still best for me. A friend of mine just got some Giro lace up SPD shoes, not sure of the model type. The falls I took were from walking some hills with plastic cleats. It was rainy and a little muddy in 2016 on Eroica, and the mud made the cleats difficult to engage and release. I love old bikes, but old pedals and clips are more trouble than they're worth. Give me SPD anytime.
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Old 07-16-18, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I never understood the perceived purpose of cleats. Just seems like an annoyance to possibly improve your chances of injury. Vintage style shoes and cages seem more than adequate.
As an ex racer back in the day, we raced with metal cleats and toe clips and straps. I can't imagine racing without cleats. Ours, being metal didn't deform like the modern plastic ones, which close up and fill with grit and mud if you walk on them. Most of our racing was closed course, no stops and starts, never raced or rode on dirt till Eroica
. Even on training rides, I dont recall ever falling or having a problem with them. That was 50 years ago, maybe my memory isn't so good.
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Old 07-16-18, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I never understood the perceived purpose of cleats. Just seems like an annoyance to possibly improve your chances of injury. Vintage style shoes and cages seem more than adequate.
"Vintage style shoes and cages" DID have cleats. As described, a slotted cleat, that locked you in when you tightened the strap. Actually significantly MORE likely to allow you to fall than with clipless cleats.

Of course, clipless pedals aren't exactly a C&V no-no. Obviously out of place for a purist on a '60s or '70s bike, but a pair of Looks, Times or original Shimano PDs on a mid-'80s bike would be perfectly apropos.

Now, let's see if someone can retrofit a pair of SPD cleats to a pair of NOS Detto Pietros......
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Old 07-17-18, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
"Vintage style shoes and cages" DID have cleats. As described, a slotted cleat, that locked you in when you tightened the strap. Actually significantly MORE likely to allow you to fall than with clipless cleats.

Of course, clipless pedals aren't exactly a C&V no-no. Obviously out of place for a purist on a '60s or '70s bike, but a pair of Looks, Times or original Shimano PDs on a mid-'80s bike would be perfectly apropos.

Now, let's see if someone can retrofit a pair of SPD cleats to a pair of NOS Detto Pietros......
I could imagine myself using them if I were a track rider. I grew up riding on the road and even though I never entered a formal race, I had a very competitive mindset, and didn't get passed often by cars on city streets, and 52/14 was my default gear (10th speed) unless I hit a hill. I had cages and straps, and never once did it cross my mind that I was losing power. Certainly, as a racer, you're going to look for every competitive advantage you can afford (like finding light spikes as a track runner). That said, I can't imagine using them on an 'Eroica ride, given that you almost need a support team to get out of them when you stop - let alone what might happen if your chain slipped on a climb.
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Old 07-17-18, 08:28 AM
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@tiger1964, what size shoes do you wear? I have shoes I don't need any more in size 48. I have Shimano CT-5 or something very close.
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Old 07-17-18, 10:37 AM
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Ah, found the info on those tangs to go behind the pedals, called "pedal flips" and I see Amazon has them (possibly others too); I think I did order a set but installed on a bike currently on loan to be in an amateur film.

Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@tiger1964, what size shoes do you wear? I have shoes I don't need any more in size 48. I have Shimano CT-5 or something very close.
Thanks! But the Shimanos I am wearing now are 46's and I think a bit loose at that.
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Old 07-17-18, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I could imagine myself using them if I were a track rider. I grew up riding on the road and even though I never entered a formal race, I had a very competitive mindset, and didn't get passed often by cars on city streets, and 52/14 was my default gear (10th speed) unless I hit a hill. I had cages and straps, and never once did it cross my mind that I was losing power. Certainly, as a racer, you're going to look for every competitive advantage you can afford (like finding light spikes as a track runner). That said, I can't imagine using them on an 'Eroica ride, given that you almost need a support team to get out of them when you stop - let alone what might happen if your chain slipped on a climb.
I made the switch to clipless after using crappy plastic full cages that I didn't tighten on a commute. I was going ~40 mph down a hill in traffic (trying to keep up) when my foot slipped out of the cage. I freaked out, accidentally jerked my other foot out of its cage and now was going down the hill in heavy traffic with both feet out of retention. The way the pedals were set up, the non-cage side was awkward to use, but I was focusing on controlling the bike and traffic so that I wasn't able to slip back into the cages.

Sure I ended up just fine and was new-ish to getting back to riding after many years away and didn't have the experience to make good choices, but wanting a more secure way of locking into my pedals in traffic led me to clipless. It wasn't a power thing, it was a keeping safe thing. Once I put them on, it became second nature and I feel weird riding a bike that doesn't have them.
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Old 07-17-18, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
As an ex racer back in the day, we raced with metal cleats and toe clips and straps. I can't imagine racing without cleats. Ours, being metal didn't deform like the modern plastic ones, which close up and fill with grit and mud if you walk on them. Most of our racing was closed course, no stops and starts, never raced or rode on dirt till Eroica
. Even on training rides, I dont recall ever falling or having a problem with them. That was 50 years ago, maybe my memory isn't so good.
I used to race a bit later, during the era of plastic cleats. It wasn't that big of a deal. The plastic was necessary with campy SL and other alloy pedal cages. I never deformed them enough that there was any problem getting into the pedals. If you walked around in mud or wet dirt, you might have to clear the slots, but that was the case for metal cleats too.

Anyhow, they absolutely were necessary. You'd be dropped without them. This was a time of bigger gears when 42x21 was a typical lowest gear. I lived in a very hilly area. The extra torque from being able to pedal around 360º was required.

I did fall once, at the first stop sign the very first time I wore cleats. Simply spaced it. Mostly just embarrassing. Never did that again in like 100k miles!! Loosening straps quickly became instinctual, so in reality falling over was pretty much a non issue. I still ghost reach for my straps every once in a blue moon.
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Old 08-24-18, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
but got a pair of Louis Garneau Nickel SPD shoes, $39 at Nashbar.
Alas, trouble finding those. My first choice is the Shomano CT5, but on Shimano's website https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/produ.../SH-CT500.html they now show the black ones are "not for the NA market" (yeah, I could order from overseas but good luck getting the right size). Curious what other shoes I might try, will explore more LBS's but so far stores only sell "21st Century Space Bug" styling in shoes and also helmets.
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Old 08-24-18, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tiger1964 View Post
Alas, trouble finding those. My first choice is the Shomano CT5, but on Shimano's website https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/produ.../SH-CT500.html they now show the black ones are "not for the NA market" (yeah, I could order from overseas but good luck getting the right size). Curious what other shoes I might try, will explore more LBS's but so far stores only sell "21st Century Space Bug" styling in shoes and also helmets.
Nashbar always has closeout stuff. If you dont get it when they have it, you probably won't find it again. Sometimes you just get lucky. A friend of mine got some similar Giro shoes, "vintage" looking, but SPD mount. Dont know the type. Keep on shopping.
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Old 08-24-18, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
Keep on shopping.
Another option is the wait until some shop has the CT5 in blue, test fit for size but don't buy but order the black ones from the UK. This is called the "being a jerk" method.
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Old 08-24-18, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
I never understood the perceived purpose of cleats. Just seems like an annoyance to possibly improve your chances of injury. Vintage style shoes and cages seem more than adequate.
If they are adequate for your needs, then, clearly cleats are a solution in search of a problem.

I find I need some kind of foot retention is helpful on longer rides, especially on fixed gear, and the cleats are the best way to get it.

I used to be fine with cages and straps, but in the last ten years or so I have had a hard time finding a shoe and cage combination that doesn't hurt my feet. On short rides that may not be an issue, but I really start to feel it on long rides. Discomfort is one thing, but injury is another; and after one ride, I think this was about two years ago, something damaged my big toes so much that the toenails went black and fell off . Now I'm very wary of cages and straps on longer rides.
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Old 08-24-18, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
If they are adequate for your needs, then, clearly cleats are a solution in search of a problem.

I find I need some kind of foot retention is helpful on longer rides, especially on fixed gear, and the cleats are the best way to get it.

I used to be fine with cages and straps, but in the last ten years or so I have had a hard time finding a shoe and cage combination that doesn't hurt my feet. On short rides that may not be an issue, but I really start to feel it on long rides. Discomfort is one thing, but injury is another; and after one ride, I think this was about two years ago, something damaged my big toes so much that the toenails went black and fell off . Now I'm very wary of cages and straps on longer rides.
I typically ride "clipless" on longer rides. The SPD system works for me, and I have touring style shoes s that I can walk.

I thought that "cleats" required cages and straps, and as I've never felt inclined to try them, I went with my imagination that there would be the same pressure points as one would have with clips and straps.
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Old 08-24-18, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
...
I thought that "cleats" required cages and straps....
Oh! Right. I get it. Well, okay, I'm with you on this.

There are a few riders who really do pull the pedal backward at the bottom of the stroke and pull up at the back of the stroke and push forward at the top. And there are a whole lot of riders who claim to do that. For them, cleats were necessary.
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Old 08-24-18, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
Oh! Right. I get it. Well, okay, I'm with you on this.

There are a few riders who really do pull the pedal backward at the bottom of the stroke and pull up at the back of the stroke and push forward at the top. And there are a whole lot of riders who claim to do that. For them, cleats were necessary.
I've never lost my masher sensibility. Something to work on after I get to retirement.

(good explanation, btw)
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Old 08-24-18, 12:57 PM
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Old 08-24-18, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
I used to be fine with cages and straps, but in the last ten years or so I have had a hard time finding a shoe and cage combination that doesn't hurt my feet. On short rides that may not be an issue, but I really start to feel it on long rides. Discomfort is one thing, but injury is another; and after one ride, I think this was about two years ago, something damaged my big toes so much that the toenails went black and fell off . Now I'm very wary of cages and straps on longer rides.
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the above -- being someone who's always used toe clips and straps, but never cleats. How do toe clips (I presume that's what's meant by "cages") and straps hurt your feet, but cleats don't? I'm also assuming that by "cleats" you mean using cleated shoed with toe clips and straps. Or does "cleats" now mean "clipless"? Maybe I'm just terminology-impaired.
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Old 08-24-18, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the above -- being someone who's always used toe clips and straps, but never cleats. How do toe clips (I presume that's what's meant by "cages") and straps hurt your feet, but cleats don't? I'm also assuming that by "cleats" you mean using cleated shoed with toe clips and straps. Or does "cleats" now mean "clipless"? Maybe I'm just terminology-impaired.
I think you understood Zorro's post better than I did. I understood a "clear" to be the thing you put on your shoe to clip into a pedal, SPD it Look style, whatever. But he meant it as an unnecessary part of the the clip and strap system.

Clearly there's a terminology problem, where we "clip in" with a cleat to a "clipless" pedal...
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