Tell me about lightweight steel road/tour bike performance models
#51
Senior Member
I followed the advice of @Salamandrine and entered my very comprehensive measurements into the fit calculator at Competitive Cyclist and here's what I got:
I made my husband measure my inseam/PBH multiple times because I could not believe it was 32" and my height was only 5'5"! Thus I am being recommended a seat tube length that is considerably longer than top tube, which does not seem to be how most frames from this era are built. Most geometry charts I've looked at for frames like Bridgestone, Centurion etc show top tube within 1 cm of seat tube c-t, and I understand the Italians may have an even more stretched out ratio.
So I'm assuming I can use quill stem and seat post adjustments on a slightly shorter frame to achieve good extension and more moderate/relaxed geometry while keeping my top tube more in the optimum range?
Today I have become intrigued by Bridgestone and the cult of RB-1, and my husband has proposed a plan by which he will upgrade his group set and sell me his Ultegra group for a very fair price :-) not sure about that. There is currently a 54cm 1988 RB-1 for $500 on Craigslist, which I think @Salamandrine posted here above, and a 1989 RB-1 frame - to my eye the only one with a somewhat cool paint job - for local pickup on eBay for a Buy Now price of $429 ( which seems pretty high. I would be willing to pay a bit of a premium for the paint, the cult and the smaller size but not sure how high - also not sure if the 80s RB-1 are quite as sought after as 90s). Also a very nice looking Miyata 912 which is also ovepriced at $425 - how would a Miyata of that level compare to the RB-1. I assume there is limited potential for tire width. At these prices I'd probably be better off buying a brand new Soma Stanyan frameset from Velomine for $350. But then I wouldn't be C&V!
still much research and looking to do. Have not even dived into European bikes ....
I made my husband measure my inseam/PBH multiple times because I could not believe it was 32" and my height was only 5'5"! Thus I am being recommended a seat tube length that is considerably longer than top tube, which does not seem to be how most frames from this era are built. Most geometry charts I've looked at for frames like Bridgestone, Centurion etc show top tube within 1 cm of seat tube c-t, and I understand the Italians may have an even more stretched out ratio.
So I'm assuming I can use quill stem and seat post adjustments on a slightly shorter frame to achieve good extension and more moderate/relaxed geometry while keeping my top tube more in the optimum range?
Today I have become intrigued by Bridgestone and the cult of RB-1, and my husband has proposed a plan by which he will upgrade his group set and sell me his Ultegra group for a very fair price :-) not sure about that. There is currently a 54cm 1988 RB-1 for $500 on Craigslist, which I think @Salamandrine posted here above, and a 1989 RB-1 frame - to my eye the only one with a somewhat cool paint job - for local pickup on eBay for a Buy Now price of $429 ( which seems pretty high. I would be willing to pay a bit of a premium for the paint, the cult and the smaller size but not sure how high - also not sure if the 80s RB-1 are quite as sought after as 90s). Also a very nice looking Miyata 912 which is also ovepriced at $425 - how would a Miyata of that level compare to the RB-1. I assume there is limited potential for tire width. At these prices I'd probably be better off buying a brand new Soma Stanyan frameset from Velomine for $350. But then I wouldn't be C&V!
still much research and looking to do. Have not even dived into European bikes ....
Bridgestones from that era always had longer top tubes. They fit people with longer torsos and shorter legs the best. This isn't you. People are really all over the place, but women tend in general to have longer legs relatively, so your measurements aren't at all unusual. Once you get to the smaller sizes it becomes impractical to reduce top tube length and keep 700c wheels.
The thing to do is get a frame with a ST and TT length close to your range. I'd say go for a 55cm (C-T) frame with a relatively short TT. Make up the difference by using a shorter stem. For example, if the CC calc is telling you to run a 10cm stem with a 50.5 TT, and the bike you find has a 53.5cm TT, then run a 7cm stem instead. You will probably have to split the difference a bit, IOW go for a frame at the smaller side of 'Eddy' fit, and go for a bit more seat post extension but a shorter stem. I suggest not pushing the small frame thing too far if buying a vintage level top tube frame. That is to say don't buy a really small frame and run a long seat post. You'll have a badly fitted bike. "Eddy Fit" is a good middle of the road sizing.
If you do go for a modern retro frame like a SOMA Stanyan with a sloped top tube, subtract a few cm from the seat tube size. In this case to go more by the TT. They are meant to use longer seat posts. You'd ride the 52 probably. Not a bad way to go BTW. Prestige tubing is great. Equivalent more or less to Reynolds 725 or the old 753. Add an Ultegra group or something similar and you have a nice modern bike with many of the best qualities of old steel bikes.
RB-1 were nice bikes with top shelf frames, and IMO more comparable to a pro Miyata than a 912. Again I'd recommend leapfrogging past the semi pro range. Go directly to top end. C&V racing bikes were about 21lbs on average. My Masi was about 20 lbs even with race wheels, 21 with training/general riding wheels.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 09-17-18 at 07:39 AM.
#52
Senior Member
You're welcome, but thank the Competitive Cyclist people for the fit calculator. They made it.
#53
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I followed the advice of @Salamandrine and entered my very comprehensive measurements into the fit calculator at Competitive Cyclist and here's what I got:
I made my husband measure my inseam/PBH multiple times because I could not believe it was 32" and my height was only 5'5"! Thus I am being recommended a seat tube length that is considerably longer than top tube, which does not seem to be how most frames from this era are built. Most geometry charts I've looked at for frames like Bridgestone, Centurion etc show top tube within 1 cm of seat tube c-t, and I understand the Italians may have an even more stretched out ratio.
So I'm assuming I can use quill stem and seat post adjustments on a slightly shorter frame to achieve good extension and more moderate/relaxed geometry while keeping my top tube more in the optimum range?
Today I have become intrigued by Bridgestone and the cult of RB-1, and my husband has proposed a plan by which he will upgrade his group set and sell me his Ultegra group for a very fair price :-) not sure about that. There is currently a 54cm 1988 RB-1 for $500 on Craigslist, which I think @Salamandrine posted here above, and a 1989 RB-1 frame - to my eye the only one with a somewhat cool paint job - for local pickup on eBay for a Buy Now price of $429 ( which seems pretty high. I would be willing to pay a bit of a premium for the paint, the cult and the smaller size but not sure how high - also not sure if the 80s RB-1 are quite as sought after as 90s). Also a very nice looking Miyata 912 which is also ovepriced at $425 - how would a Miyata of that level compare to the RB-1. I assume there is limited potential for tire width. At these prices I'd probably be better off buying a brand new Soma Stanyan frameset from Velomine for $350. But then I wouldn't be C&V!
still much research and looking to do. Have not even dived into European bikes ....
I made my husband measure my inseam/PBH multiple times because I could not believe it was 32" and my height was only 5'5"! Thus I am being recommended a seat tube length that is considerably longer than top tube, which does not seem to be how most frames from this era are built. Most geometry charts I've looked at for frames like Bridgestone, Centurion etc show top tube within 1 cm of seat tube c-t, and I understand the Italians may have an even more stretched out ratio.
So I'm assuming I can use quill stem and seat post adjustments on a slightly shorter frame to achieve good extension and more moderate/relaxed geometry while keeping my top tube more in the optimum range?
Today I have become intrigued by Bridgestone and the cult of RB-1, and my husband has proposed a plan by which he will upgrade his group set and sell me his Ultegra group for a very fair price :-) not sure about that. There is currently a 54cm 1988 RB-1 for $500 on Craigslist, which I think @Salamandrine posted here above, and a 1989 RB-1 frame - to my eye the only one with a somewhat cool paint job - for local pickup on eBay for a Buy Now price of $429 ( which seems pretty high. I would be willing to pay a bit of a premium for the paint, the cult and the smaller size but not sure how high - also not sure if the 80s RB-1 are quite as sought after as 90s). Also a very nice looking Miyata 912 which is also ovepriced at $425 - how would a Miyata of that level compare to the RB-1. I assume there is limited potential for tire width. At these prices I'd probably be better off buying a brand new Soma Stanyan frameset from Velomine for $350. But then I wouldn't be C&V!
still much research and looking to do. Have not even dived into European bikes ....
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
@Salamandrine off the top of your head can you think of any CV bike types that might have a more favorable seat to top tube length ratio for my shorter torso?
How shirt or long of a stem can I reasonably do without it affecting handling negatively? Im mainly concerned about twitchiness.
For instance, I ran across some tempting options (non CV though) while perusing CL - two 2002 LeMond Zurich Reynolds bikes for steal prices around $300: one is a 53 with 545 mm top tube, 110 mm stem, with 116 mm head tube. the other is a women specific 49 with a 510 mm top tube, 90 mm stem and 100mm head tube.
I would probably more ideally fit to the 51 between them. Would it be a fools errand to try either? The womens has a lot less wear, appearing almost new, and is priced cheaper but I dont know the extent to which I could reasonably fiddle with the fit. The headtubes on the womens are higher relative to the mens sizes.
Thought it might be a cheap solution to get out on a reasonably fast steel bike and see what I like and dont like before attempting advanced high end C&V build.
How shirt or long of a stem can I reasonably do without it affecting handling negatively? Im mainly concerned about twitchiness.
For instance, I ran across some tempting options (non CV though) while perusing CL - two 2002 LeMond Zurich Reynolds bikes for steal prices around $300: one is a 53 with 545 mm top tube, 110 mm stem, with 116 mm head tube. the other is a women specific 49 with a 510 mm top tube, 90 mm stem and 100mm head tube.
I would probably more ideally fit to the 51 between them. Would it be a fools errand to try either? The womens has a lot less wear, appearing almost new, and is priced cheaper but I dont know the extent to which I could reasonably fiddle with the fit. The headtubes on the womens are higher relative to the mens sizes.
Thought it might be a cheap solution to get out on a reasonably fast steel bike and see what I like and dont like before attempting advanced high end C&V build.
#55
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Don't put too much faith into those fit calculators. Peter White has totally different advice, and it makes a lot of sense to me.
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php
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When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Elizabeth West, US author
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#56
Senior Member
Not really. Maybe take a look at some of the top models of various bike shop lines, rather than race specific bikes like Colnago or whatever. I'm thinking Univega Specialissima, Fuji Opus, Centurion whatever -- that sort of thing. These were spec'd out like race bikes, but many times went a little shorter on top tubes to make them work for non racers. Unfortunately, they didn't tend to publish geometry specs then, and they varied widely from year to year.
How shirt or long of a stem can I reasonably do without it affecting handling negatively? Im mainly concerned about twitchiness.
For instance, I ran across some tempting options (non CV though) while perusing CL - two 2002 LeMond Zurich Reynolds bikes for steal prices around $300: one is a 53 with 545 mm top tube, 110 mm stem, with 116 mm head tube. the other is a women specific 49 with a 510 mm top tube, 90 mm stem and 100mm head tube.
I would probably more ideally fit to the 51 between them. Would it be a fools errand to try either? The womens has a lot less wear, appearing almost new, and is priced cheaper but I dont know the extent to which I could reasonably fiddle with the fit. The headtubes on the womens are higher relative to the mens sizes.
Thought it might be a cheap solution to get out on a reasonably fast steel bike and see what I like and dont like before attempting advanced high end C&V build.
I would probably more ideally fit to the 51 between them. Would it be a fools errand to try either? The womens has a lot less wear, appearing almost new, and is priced cheaper but I dont know the extent to which I could reasonably fiddle with the fit. The headtubes on the womens are higher relative to the mens sizes.
Thought it might be a cheap solution to get out on a reasonably fast steel bike and see what I like and dont like before attempting advanced high end C&V build.
#57
Senior Member
Don't put too much faith into those fit calculators. Peter White has totally different advice, and it makes a lot of sense to me.
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php
https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php
I guess what I don't like is the whole guru fitter idea. Same thing that bugs be about master wheelbuilders. The old rules of thumb, and fit calculators, and fit charts and formulas are useful. Ultimately all anyone or anything can do is get you to a starting place. From there you have to find what works for you. the traditional ROT will get you to a reasonable starting place.
#58
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@Salamandrine, those calculators are useful. I would just not look at them as producing the best possible answer. And it takes a lot of work to measure and put in the numbers.
Guru fitters have their problems, too. I suspect they make assumptions about the rider, how much they want to exert themselves, how fast they want to go, etc. If you want to ride an omafiets, for example, a guru fitter is probably going to mislead you.
Guru fitters have their problems, too. I suspect they make assumptions about the rider, how much they want to exert themselves, how fast they want to go, etc. If you want to ride an omafiets, for example, a guru fitter is probably going to mislead you.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#59
Senior Member
Thread Starter
@3alarmer treat to see all your bikes! Thanks for posting and I get it now.
@Salamandrine do you have any trusted bike shops you recommend in LA for fit issues? I'm in Pasadena and was going to check out Around the Cycle since they sell a number of used bikes and used components and they have a used wheelset and cassette I was going to buy to put on my old Jamis Ventura so I can sell it as a complete bike (I put the original wheels on my commuter and I figure no one that might possibly buy that bike would want it as anything but complete) so at least I will be buying something if they help me out with some basic fit stuff on their bikes and I can ask about a more formal fitting. They do have a vintage Trek Elance in right now that I'm pretty sure is too small at 48cm but at least I can kick the tires and see in person.
Last time I wanted to try some vintage frames out for the first time I went to the Bicycle Stand in Long Beach, which was awesome, but I would feel so bad going back and test-riding if I don't buy something!
There's a women's specific 87 Ironman in my fave paint job: coral and white with turquoise accents, on ebay for local pickup in Oxnard starting at $120 but it's a 48 cm which i fear is just a bit small. Now if it were the 46 cm Terry version below that might be worth trying just for the hell of it!
@Salamandrine do you have any trusted bike shops you recommend in LA for fit issues? I'm in Pasadena and was going to check out Around the Cycle since they sell a number of used bikes and used components and they have a used wheelset and cassette I was going to buy to put on my old Jamis Ventura so I can sell it as a complete bike (I put the original wheels on my commuter and I figure no one that might possibly buy that bike would want it as anything but complete) so at least I will be buying something if they help me out with some basic fit stuff on their bikes and I can ask about a more formal fitting. They do have a vintage Trek Elance in right now that I'm pretty sure is too small at 48cm but at least I can kick the tires and see in person.
Last time I wanted to try some vintage frames out for the first time I went to the Bicycle Stand in Long Beach, which was awesome, but I would feel so bad going back and test-riding if I don't buy something!
There's a women's specific 87 Ironman in my fave paint job: coral and white with turquoise accents, on ebay for local pickup in Oxnard starting at $120 but it's a 48 cm which i fear is just a bit small. Now if it were the 46 cm Terry version below that might be worth trying just for the hell of it!
Last edited by MegMC; 09-17-18 at 09:41 PM.
#60
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The Terry-esque bikes are fun. My ex-wife has a genuine Terry. My daughter's girlfriend has the Centurion pictured above. The small wheel makes it very quick handling, which some people like and some don't.
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When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Elizabeth West, US author
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When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments. Elizabeth West, US author
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#61
Senior Member
I'm not the best person to ask for that since I'm a norcal transplant, and not super familiar with the local LBS's since I don't typically need one. Mostly shops fit you when they're selling you a bike, or else they sell you some sort of trumped up fitting service. (see cynical guru comments above )
Anyhow, Montrose bike shop used to have a good rep, and they're not to far from you. I was going to say Magelssen Sykkel in W Hollywood. Really cool vintage hole in the wall shop run by a cool dude, but I think he may have closed recently.
You might also look to a local bike club. That was the traditional way that you got help with fitting and other things like that.
I kinda suspect 48 is too small. If the calc is telling you ~55 (C-T) but with a short top tube, my first guess would be to split the difference with about a 52.
#62
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Thread Starter
Set up a gazillion saved CL searches and came back with a potential prospect:
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...694870833.html
Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
There was an extremely well-preserved Ironman Master for $200 in my size but it was the dreaded purple and yellow one and I just couldn't.
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...694870833.html
Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
There was an extremely well-preserved Ironman Master for $200 in my size but it was the dreaded purple and yellow one and I just couldn't.
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...
#64
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Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
Shimano 600 from that era is solid, mid level componentry, and the indexing stuff worked better than anyone else's, including Campagnolo.
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#66
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classic, not dreaded course I still have my fluorescent euro ski clothes from the 80's which my son has taken over..... they are now retro cool
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Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#67
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Set up a gazillion saved CL searches and came back with a potential prospect:
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...694870833.html
Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
There was an extremely well-preserved Ironman Master for $200 in my size but it was the dreaded purple and yellow one and I just couldn't.
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...694870833.html
Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
There was an extremely well-preserved Ironman Master for $200 in my size but it was the dreaded purple and yellow one and I just couldn't.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#68
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#69
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Set up a gazillion saved CL searches and came back with a potential prospect:
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...694870833.html
Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
There was an extremely well-preserved Ironman Master for $200 in my size but it was the dreaded purple and yellow one and I just couldn't.
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...694870833.html
Handsome-looking mid-80s 52 cm Benotto 2500 with Shimano 600 components. Can't find exact information about which Columbus tubing but likely SL? I understand that 80s Benotto's were not made in Italy but Mexico - still this seems rather on the cheap side for what it is and I like the paint job.
There was an extremely well-preserved Ironman Master for $200 in my size but it was the dreaded purple and yellow one and I just couldn't.
#70
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Hahaha I knew I was going to get some blowback on that one. As someone who was in their very awkward adolescent stage in the late 80s, maybe it's just too painful to relive. The purple marbling looks like purple stonewashed jeans, which I probably wore
#71
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Its cool, as long as you peg rolled your cuffs
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...that is the even more highly regarded "Purple Haze" edition. Oh the hue manitee.
#73
Senior Member
Benotto was kind of like Olmo. They made some 'junior' level racing bikes. It might be Cromor or something. You can tell by the seatpost size. If it's SL it will be 27.2.
BITD made in Mexico did not have the connotation of cheap. It's where the Benotto company was based.
BITD made in Mexico did not have the connotation of cheap. It's where the Benotto company was based.
#74
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The Centurions with the smoked haze look always felt to me like someone really admired old Allegros and Mondias. Hanging around this forum has got me quietly pondering picking one up sometime, just because they are so highly regarded.
#75
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Thread Starter
Found these posted in another forum, supposedly from 1987 Benotto catalog - looks like that model
Seems like it could check a number of boxes for me as an entree into vintage road bikes - achieving high quality steel frame, respectable components and a little Italian romance for a price that won't cripple me if it's not a long-term keeper. Trying to find some info on the geometry but I imagine it is fairly aggressive since its a racing model. Not sure how I feel about that. I think a more "sport" oriented model would probably be more my speed but perhaps I can make some adjustments in that direction.
From what I can tell this model has indexed SIS shifting on a 6-speed free wheel ... if I ever wanted to upgrade the wheel with more speeds would I have to replace the whole drivetrain?
Thankfully the Ironman listing has upped the price again back to $375 so I feel slightly less bad for letting such a deal slip by me ... I wrestled with it, but seriously I couldn't handle that Purple Haze.
Seems like it could check a number of boxes for me as an entree into vintage road bikes - achieving high quality steel frame, respectable components and a little Italian romance for a price that won't cripple me if it's not a long-term keeper. Trying to find some info on the geometry but I imagine it is fairly aggressive since its a racing model. Not sure how I feel about that. I think a more "sport" oriented model would probably be more my speed but perhaps I can make some adjustments in that direction.
From what I can tell this model has indexed SIS shifting on a 6-speed free wheel ... if I ever wanted to upgrade the wheel with more speeds would I have to replace the whole drivetrain?
Thankfully the Ironman listing has upped the price again back to $375 so I feel slightly less bad for letting such a deal slip by me ... I wrestled with it, but seriously I couldn't handle that Purple Haze.