My first steel bike, 1985 Trek 520
10-15-18, 08:28 AM
#26
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I can't agree, though I like Treks of this vintage. Dating back to the short cage I had on my new 1984 610, I have found balky shifting even as friction shifting, and worse on the long cage. They have no geometric advantage over the Nuovo Record of the day. The parallellogram is canted but not slanted in imitation of teh great SunTour design. One reason I hated teh bike so intensely the first few years I had it was the lack of shifting quality, with the Helicomatic, which this bike has.
10-15-18, 08:32 AM
#27
Lost in Space
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Wow!, that bike really cleaned up beautifully!
I think the coating of dirt and grease all over it actually helped preserve it. Almost like Cosmoline does with old NOS guns.
Too late now,...... but not checking your rear derailleur rear wheel spoke clearance before your first ride on any bike is like riding off with your front quick release on the open position.... Glad to hear you only damaged spokes and not crashed.
I think the coating of dirt and grease all over it actually helped preserve it. Almost like Cosmoline does with old NOS guns.
Too late now,...... but not checking your rear derailleur rear wheel spoke clearance before your first ride on any bike is like riding off with your front quick release on the open position.... Glad to hear you only damaged spokes and not crashed.
10-15-18, 09:21 AM
#28
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I got it done for the most part but caused myself some more work. I had taken the dork disc off and in my excitement and haste of finishing it I went for a test ride and forgot to double check the limit screw on the rear derailleur. Needless to say I now need 9 spikes.
Not sure where the best place to get replacement spokes would be or if I may as well just get a new wheel and replace the Heliconatic hub at the same time.
Not sure where the best place to get replacement spokes would be or if I may as well just get a new wheel and replace the Heliconatic hub at the same time.
“A guy I know” apparently didn’t set his limit screws right on his XTR derailleur on his Miyata 1000LT. He ended up totally hosing up the spring system on the derailleur and bent the ever livin’ **** out of the derailleur hanger.
I felt like such a dip****. I mean “that one guy...”
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10-15-18, 12:36 PM
#29
Senior Member
If you are keeping the Helicomatic hub you will find only limited choices for a replacement freewheel because of the unique design of the spiral splines on the hub that the freewheel fits over - obsolete and unusual. Do some Googling, and you will get some ebay and random bike shop/private seller hits. You will also need a special tool to loosen the ring on the existing freewheel in order to remove it - or you try to improvise with the tools you have - there are some suggestions about this on the web.
You should also measure the distance between the rear drop-outs. It might only be 120mm. If it is 126mm that is better. This information plays into your possible upgrade options. For example, a modern 700c rear road wheel usually needs a 130mm space. I simply stretched the rear drop outs on my Trek 410 by hand to get a 130mm hub to fit - but the original spacing was 126 mm - only a 4 mm difference. Measure your bike and check back if this is something new to you..
If you can overcome the two possible issues mentioned you may be able to use your existing friction shifters as friction shifters are more forgiving when it comes to trying new derailleurs and freewheels.
Many people run into the types of issues that you are just discovering when rehabbing a bike - but that's part of what makes it fun!
10-15-18, 01:14 PM
#30
Lost in Space
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If you are keeping the Helicomatic hub you will find only limited choices for a replacement freewheel because of the unique design of the spiral splines on the hub that the freewheel fits over - obsolete and unusual. Do some Googling, and you will get some ebay and random bike shop/private seller hits. You will also need a special tool to loosen the ring on the existing freewheel in order to remove it - or you try to improvise with the tools you have - there are some suggestions about this on the web.
You should also measure the distance between the rear drop-outs. It might only be 120mm. If it is 126mm that is better. This information plays into your possible upgrade options. For example, a modern 700c rear road wheel usually needs a 130mm space. I simply stretched the rear drop outs on my Trek 410 by hand to get a 130mm hub to fit - but the original spacing was 126 mm - only a 4 mm difference. Measure your bike and check back if this is something new to you..
If you can overcome the two possible issues mentioned you may be able to use your existing friction shifters as friction shifters are more forgiving when it comes to trying new derailleurs and freewheels.
Many people run into the types of issues that you are just discovering when rehabbing a bike - but that's part of what makes it fun!
You should also measure the distance between the rear drop-outs. It might only be 120mm. If it is 126mm that is better. This information plays into your possible upgrade options. For example, a modern 700c rear road wheel usually needs a 130mm space. I simply stretched the rear drop outs on my Trek 410 by hand to get a 130mm hub to fit - but the original spacing was 126 mm - only a 4 mm difference. Measure your bike and check back if this is something new to you..
If you can overcome the two possible issues mentioned you may be able to use your existing friction shifters as friction shifters are more forgiving when it comes to trying new derailleurs and freewheels.
Many people run into the types of issues that you are just discovering when rehabbing a bike - but that's part of what makes it fun!
10-15-18, 01:17 PM
#31
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Beautiful bike.
Note that you can't just throw in a 6, 7, or 8 speed rear wheel without modifying the frame. Your frame most likely has a 120mm OLD (over locknut distance, or distance between the rear dropouts). To insert a 6 or 7 speed you would need to have the frame spread and the dropouts realigned to be parallel. This is referred to as cold-setting and can usually, though not always, be done without damaging the frame. Some but not all bike shops will have the tools for doing this. For an 8-speed I think you would need to go to 130mm, which definitely carries some risk. Some folks do the spreading without realigning the dropouts, or simply wedge a 126mm OLD wheel into the 120mm gap. However, what happens when you do that is that the axle becomes subject to a bending force and will eventually snap (ask me how I know), and/or the rear dropout will crack.
If I were you I'd replace the spokes (an easy and inexpensive task, just measure their length and gauge and then tighten and true), overhaul the hub and ride. Although the helicomatic is problematic for long distance touring, chances are fair that you'd experience no issues. If you actually decide to replace the wheel I'd suggest sticking with a 5-speed width (assuming that is what you currently have) given that you already have a triple and half-step. No need for 6, 7 or 8 in the back and the added cost/hassle of cold-setting the frame.
Edit: Great minds think alike. While I was dillydallying about hitting "Post", jlaw gave a similar answer.
Note that you can't just throw in a 6, 7, or 8 speed rear wheel without modifying the frame. Your frame most likely has a 120mm OLD (over locknut distance, or distance between the rear dropouts). To insert a 6 or 7 speed you would need to have the frame spread and the dropouts realigned to be parallel. This is referred to as cold-setting and can usually, though not always, be done without damaging the frame. Some but not all bike shops will have the tools for doing this. For an 8-speed I think you would need to go to 130mm, which definitely carries some risk. Some folks do the spreading without realigning the dropouts, or simply wedge a 126mm OLD wheel into the 120mm gap. However, what happens when you do that is that the axle becomes subject to a bending force and will eventually snap (ask me how I know), and/or the rear dropout will crack.
If I were you I'd replace the spokes (an easy and inexpensive task, just measure their length and gauge and then tighten and true), overhaul the hub and ride. Although the helicomatic is problematic for long distance touring, chances are fair that you'd experience no issues. If you actually decide to replace the wheel I'd suggest sticking with a 5-speed width (assuming that is what you currently have) given that you already have a triple and half-step. No need for 6, 7 or 8 in the back and the added cost/hassle of cold-setting the frame.
Edit: Great minds think alike. While I was dillydallying about hitting "Post", jlaw gave a similar answer.
Last edited by davester; 10-15-18 at 01:24 PM.
10-15-18, 01:40 PM
#32
Senior Member
Thanks for the info. I was researching the widths of the hubs. I do need to measure the one I have to see. I have removed the freewheel already to clean everything up. If I can get spokes cheap enough I will fix the current wheel so I can get a few miles on it and see if I could make it work for me. If it will work for me I will invest in a decent wheel set for it. If it isn't going to work for me I will keep the fixed wheel on it and flip it. I had my wife and daughter both try the bike and neither one of them were enthused about downtube shifters.
No love for DT shifters? Actually, I kind of agree with you when it comes to DT friction shifters - at least when I'm trying to keep up with my friends and their STI set-ups. (why does every ride turn into a race?
oh, well..) For a more relaxed riding situation friction shifting is ok.However, I installed a 10 speed wheel/cassette on my Trek 410 (in addition to a whole bunch of other fun upgrades) along with 10 speed INDEXED DT shifters. Now that is livin!! I just reach down and click-click-click through the gears. It also helps that I have a set of bars that are comfortable when riding in the drops - shorter reach to the shifters. I rode it about 1100 miles so far this year and it's my favorite bike - in part because of the shifters.
Shimano Dura Ace - Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 10sp Downtube Shifter Set | Chain Reaction Cycles
But then again I spent $800 on pieces and parts making that bike into a more modern riding machine - no regrets whatsoever.
10-15-18, 02:59 PM
#33
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Beautiful bike.
Note that you can't just throw in a 6, 7, or 8 speed rear wheel without modifying the frame. Your frame most likely has a 120mm OLD (over locknut distance, or distance between the rear dropouts). To insert a 6 or 7 speed you would need to have the frame spread and the dropouts realigned to be parallel. This is referred to as cold-setting and can usually, though not always, be done without damaging the frame. Some but not all bike shops will have the tools for doing this. For an 8-speed I think you would need to go to 130mm, which definitely carries some risk. Some folks do the spreading without realigning the dropouts, or simply wedge a 126mm OLD wheel into the 120mm gap. However, what happens when you do that is that the axle becomes subject to a bending force and will eventually snap (ask me how I know), and/or the rear dropout will crack.
If I were you I'd replace the spokes (an easy and inexpensive task, just measure their length and gauge and then tighten and true), overhaul the hub and ride. Although the helicomatic is problematic for long distance touring, chances are fair that you'd experience no issues. If you actually decide to replace the wheel I'd suggest sticking with a 5-speed width (assuming that is what you currently have) given that you already have a triple and half-step. No need for 6, 7 or 8 in the back and the added cost/hassle of cold-setting the frame.
Edit: Great minds think alike. While I was dillydallying about hitting "Post", jlaw gave a similar answer.
Note that you can't just throw in a 6, 7, or 8 speed rear wheel without modifying the frame. Your frame most likely has a 120mm OLD (over locknut distance, or distance between the rear dropouts). To insert a 6 or 7 speed you would need to have the frame spread and the dropouts realigned to be parallel. This is referred to as cold-setting and can usually, though not always, be done without damaging the frame. Some but not all bike shops will have the tools for doing this. For an 8-speed I think you would need to go to 130mm, which definitely carries some risk. Some folks do the spreading without realigning the dropouts, or simply wedge a 126mm OLD wheel into the 120mm gap. However, what happens when you do that is that the axle becomes subject to a bending force and will eventually snap (ask me how I know), and/or the rear dropout will crack.
If I were you I'd replace the spokes (an easy and inexpensive task, just measure their length and gauge and then tighten and true), overhaul the hub and ride. Although the helicomatic is problematic for long distance touring, chances are fair that you'd experience no issues. If you actually decide to replace the wheel I'd suggest sticking with a 5-speed width (assuming that is what you currently have) given that you already have a triple and half-step. No need for 6, 7 or 8 in the back and the added cost/hassle of cold-setting the frame.
Edit: Great minds think alike. While I was dillydallying about hitting "Post", jlaw gave a similar answer.
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
10-15-18, 03:26 PM
#34
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The dropout measures 4.492” which should be close to 126mm. I measured the one spoke I removed and I believe they are 14 gauge x 292mm. Since it should be pretty cheap to just get spokes and I can true the wheel I will go that route for now and give myself some time to decide if it fits me good enough to keep it. I do really like the bike and there is nothing better than knowing you put the work into it to bring it back.
10-15-18, 04:15 PM
#35
Senior Member
The dropout measures 4.492” which should be close to 126mm. I measured the one spoke I removed and I believe they are 14 gauge x 292mm. Since it should be pretty cheap to just get spokes and I can true the wheel I will go that route for now and give myself some time to decide if it fits me good enough to keep it. I do really like the bike and there is nothing better than knowing you put the work into it to bring it back.
Re: spokes - they are probably straight gauge, not butted, yes? You can buy these at several websites or perhaps your LBS. Maybe you can replace one at a time and that won't cause the wheel to lose too much of it's true and round. I would use a tension meter, truing stand, and dish gauge - but that's because I have these things. You might be able to get away without needing these items - leave the wheel on the bike and use the brake pads as a gauge of true and round. There are other ideas about improvised truing gauges on the web.
Good Luck!
10-15-18, 04:39 PM
#36
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4.492"? You might want to double check as that equates to approx. 114mm.
Re: spokes - they are probably straight gauge, not butted, yes? You can buy these at several websites or perhaps your LBS. Maybe you can replace one at a time and that won't cause the wheel to lose too much of it's true and round. I would use a tension meter, truing stand, and dish gauge - but that's because I have these things. You might be able to get away without needing these items - leave the wheel on the bike and use the brake pads as a gauge of true and round. There are other ideas about improvised truing gauges on the web.
Good Luck!
Re: spokes - they are probably straight gauge, not butted, yes? You can buy these at several websites or perhaps your LBS. Maybe you can replace one at a time and that won't cause the wheel to lose too much of it's true and round. I would use a tension meter, truing stand, and dish gauge - but that's because I have these things. You might be able to get away without needing these items - leave the wheel on the bike and use the brake pads as a gauge of true and round. There are other ideas about improvised truing gauges on the web.
Good Luck!
10-15-18, 05:01 PM
#37
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Should u need a wheel. These would be nice. https://www.ebay.com/p/Wheel-Master-Wheels-27-Alloy-Road-Double-Wall-27in-RR-18-QR-Sil-pol-MSW-Sun-Cr1/1503836275?iid=271427696475
10-15-18, 07:59 PM
#38
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Super job on the cleanup!! That looks very nice!!
What do you use the clean the frame? And what do you use the clean the brakes and the other parts?
What do you use the clean the frame? And what do you use the clean the brakes and the other parts?
10-16-18, 06:18 AM
#39
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A good majority of it cleaned up with soap and water. I used Meguires compound on the paint with a shop rag to polish the paint and then waxed it. On the shifters, brakes and other metal pieces I used metal polish. I forget the name of it but it is blue and smells like ammonia. On the crank and cassette we have a parts washer and I used that to get all the old gunk off.
10-16-18, 08:16 AM
#40
Senior Member
0000 steel wool (very fine) works well on chromed parts, nuts, bolts, and aluminum - but don't use it on painted or clear-coated surfaces, you'll see scratches/haze.
Simple Green or citrus cleaner should get most of the grease/grime off.
10-16-18, 08:21 AM
#41
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This is turning out to be a BEAUTIFUL bike! What size is that, 54cm? Its beautiful. GREAT job saving such a classic ride!
10-16-18, 11:48 AM
#42
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It is a 54cm. I went to the LBS on my lunch brake and picked up 9 new spokes and nipples. I will try and work on the wheel tonight but not sure I will have enough time this evening. Most likely work on it more tomorrow after work.
10-16-18, 04:59 PM
#43
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I ended up getting the new spokes installed and trued the wheel. Checked and adjusted the high/low limits on the rear derailleur and she should be good to go. I did ride it down to the end of the driveway and back. You can tell it rides so smooth just in that short distance. It’s going to take me a little while to get used to friction shifting.
I went to adjust the stem down further but it’s bottomed out. If I am going to keep it I will need to get a little longer seat post with possibly a little setback and a lower stem.
I will get some finished pics when we finally get some sunshine around here.
I went to adjust the stem down further but it’s bottomed out. If I am going to keep it I will need to get a little longer seat post with possibly a little setback and a lower stem.
I will get some finished pics when we finally get some sunshine around here.
10-16-18, 06:15 PM
#44
Senior Member
Interested to know how you like the bike once you have a chance to put some miles on it. If you decide to try something other than DT friction shifters there are many interesting possibilities you could try (and I think that you would only need to buy the shifters and new cable/housing):
** 'ratcheting' bar end shifters.
** Bar-Mount 'wing' shifters:
.
** Gevenalle brake-mount shifters:
If you want STI-type shifting that will require new derailleurs, hubs (wheels), cassette, etc. $$$$
** 'ratcheting' bar end shifters.
** Bar-Mount 'wing' shifters:
.
** Gevenalle brake-mount shifters:
If you want STI-type shifting that will require new derailleurs, hubs (wheels), cassette, etc. $$$$
10-17-18, 04:53 AM
#45
Lost in Space
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Interested to know how you like the bike once you have a chance to put some miles on it. If you decide to try something other than DT friction shifters there are many interesting possibilities you could try (and I think that you would only need to buy the shifters and new cable/housing):
** 'ratcheting' bar end shifters.
** Bar-Mount 'wing' shifters:
** Gevenalle brake-mount shifters:
If you want STI-type shifting that will require new derailleurs, hubs (wheels), cassette, etc. $$$$
** 'ratcheting' bar end shifters.
** Bar-Mount 'wing' shifters:
** Gevenalle brake-mount shifters:
If you want STI-type shifting that will require new derailleurs, hubs (wheels), cassette, etc. $$$$
I want to try and get a feel for it today and see if it is close enough to fitting to where a new seat post would do the trick. Hopefully the sun will be out and I can get a couple of good pics of it. I have yet to see the paint sparkle in the sunshine.
10-17-18, 01:59 PM
#46
Lost in Space
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Took it for a ride on my lunch break. Not a great day for riding with how windy it is. Does it ever ride smooth though. For only having 25mm tires on it at 95psi it rides like a cadillac. I need about 2 to 3 cm more on the seat post height and the seat needs to be moved back about the same amount. I am going to try getting a setback seat post in a taller height and see how it goes. I definitely like the half step gearing and I believe I can get used to the friction shifting also. Here are a couple pics of it in the sunlight.
10-17-18, 02:15 PM
#47
Senior Member
Beautiful!
Where did you get the red bar tape?
Where did you get the red bar tape?
10-17-18, 02:18 PM
#48
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Should u need a wheel. These would be nice. https://www.ebay.com/p/Wheel-Master-...d=271427696475
10-17-18, 02:25 PM
#49
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10-18-18, 08:35 PM
#50
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It's amazing, and sad to think what gets thrown away, and does not make into someones hands who can save it.
(And how my local dump won't let you take anything, not that it wouldn't take forever to sell it
)
So.....ya gonna keep it?
(And how my local dump won't let you take anything, not that it wouldn't take forever to sell it
)So.....ya gonna keep it?