Titanium framesets without matching Titanium forks? Why was this?
 

Most titanium framesets Ive seen came either with Carbon or Steel and some even Aluminum forks. Why didn't they just offer matching frame/fork as we see with many other steel/carbon/aluminum framesets? Was it the ride quality? Was it the money? Or were Titanium forks inferior to these other materials (doubt it) ?

...the first titanium bike frames like the Teledyne were pretty flexy. As people got better at using the material, the tubing diameters got larger and this problem got more or less solved. I suppose (but have no proof) that there were some issues with obtaining the material in fork type profiles (as were traditional in the steel fork genre). And then Al and CF materials came along in rapid succession. I'm sure you could probably make a fork out of titanium, but suspect it would be fugly, like a lot of the CF forks that have been fitted to titanium and steel frames.

All of this is speculation on my part, and if someone tells me I'm horribly wrong, I'm fine with it. :)

As an engineer, I would add that the stiffness of a titanium fork may have been too high and what you want from a front fork (and the rear fork too) is the ability to disperse the forces from a rough road and smooth out the ride. I guess my teeth might fall out if I rode a bike with titanium forks! :speedy:

I would think that the opposite would be true - the material would not be sufficiently stiff. I'm pretty sure titanium frames are lauded for having excellent resiliency similar to a steel ride. Some stronger riders might consider (earlier) titanium frames to be wet noodles. Titanium seatposts and stems are sometimes spec'd to soften the ride and mute buzzing.

It you type in Wittson into eBay, you will find some frames by Lithuanian custom titanium framebuilder Wittson. He had a several custom titanium forks on there. The road version costs over $1,100. Personally, I think having a titanium fork to go with my Wittson Illuminati titanium compact frame would be super cool.

[MENTION=42101]masi61[/MENTION] - thanks for your comments. I have not ridden a titanium bike as they are way beyond my budget but it would be interesting to compare one with a high quality steely framed bike.

Might see one someday, I see cane creek has a new Ti crank out that is only slightly better looking than the vintage Monari Ti crank I had years ago.

I owned a Teledyne back in the day.
Flexy, comfortable. It did "plane" in certain circumstances. A bit unnerving when braking hard, the wheelbase drastically shortened, like up to 15 mm. You got used to it.
Part of the lateral flex could have been the collared down downtube in two sections. I understand why they did it, but a significant compromise.
The fork... Too bad they did not think out of the box enough and just do a straight bladed fork. My thought the radius work hardened the tubes in the wrong place.
Could have used an 1 1/8" steerer, under the BB cable routing too... The engineers knew they had to increase the tube diameter to get reasonable stiffness... they had to tool up the fork crown anyway...
Tandem headsets did exist...

I do have a later brand X ti fork, a unicrown style creation, pretty terrific, but very limited tire size capable.

I've talked to Dave Levy, TiCycles, about this. Ti forks are quite doable, but to get adequate stiffness, the blade diameter has to be a real step bigger than steel and they will look a little clumsy. Also, at the moment, that tapered blade would need to be custom drawn, not a cheap option. He has built a ti MTB fork that is super light. Thin ti blades and even thinner front blades running to and tying into the stem to form a triangular truss. Radical. Limits what you can do with the stem. But really light, really stiff and strong.

It is my opinion that steel forks match ti frames feel-wise really well; that the twice as high modulus of elasticity (material stiffness) for the unsupported fork matches the fully supported ti frame tubes near perfectly. (Said as the owner of two steel forked ti bikes. I did a quick spin on a steel forked ti bike almost 30 years ago and my thought was "This is it! Make this a custom road bike for me and it cannot get any better." Had my doubts many times after I plunked down my money and waited for my first custom. But first ride? "Yeah!!" 10 years later and another ti bike, same answer.

Ben

I test rode a friend's Telydyne Titan back in the late 1970's, all Campy equipped. The amount of front derailleur trim required with even the slightest amount of hill climbing was pretty laughable. I mean, it appeared that if you stood to climb in those racer gears with the corn cob freewheel, the bottom bracket flex was of the magnitude of almost an inch side to side. Or that was what if felt like. Even though my Masi Gran Criterium was quite a bit heavier, when I got back on it - it felt like an absolute crotch rocket in comparison. Ultimately sprintable, with seamless acceleration.

Today's titanium frames have come so far. My current titanium bike is a "Veritas" from about 15 years ago. The oversized tubes and the 1-1/8" carbon fork and the compact geometry make for a really tight, yet compliant ride.

Used titanium frames seem like they would be worth pursuing since they can last a long, long time. Lots of Sevens, Litespeeds, Lynskeys, Merlins, and many other titanium makes come up on the used market all the time. Often times, the prices for the used frames are less than $1,000.

Never did understand why they "collared down" the down tube. Was it just to accommodate existing derailleur lever clamps and cable stops??
Not the wisest engineering solution, with the resulting compromise in frame stiffness and aesthetics....
Teledyne could have just made up custom clamps to adapt such components on to the frame..

Titanium is hard to work with. If you want to shape a fork and not use tubing you need to hydroform it but titanium has a tendency to crack when shaping it. It used to be pretty damn difficult up until very recently (2012). There are a few companies that do build custom titanium forks but in most cases carbon fibre is simply more cost-effective.

Maybe we will see some more companies start offerering titanium forks but it will stay a bit of a rare sight.

I always thought this too, seemed like a really bad thing to do to the frame just fit a shifter band around it. Seems like it would've added a lot to the cost of the frame going the route they did, too.

Yes, to fit the standard clampings, same reason the seat tube was standard diameter, not oversized as they knew it should have been.
Remember these were sold as frame sets, you or the selling shop built them up.
The advertising imagery showed Shimano fitted. Shimano did tool up for the oversized top tube cable clamps, sold Teledyne headsets and seat binder bolts.

If they had thought just a bit ahead to under the BB cable routing and been willing to attach Campagnolo style down tube cable bosses...
And figured out waterbottle attachment points... maybe a seat binding collar in aluminum instead of that minute welding, save that effort for the shifter bosses.

The collared down forming was impressive from a technical viewpoint- so was the fork curve. big beefy fork blades at the crown.

I had watched the prior construction of the Ti-22 Can Am car, so had listened intently to the designer and fabricators of that race car... I really felt ti was a potentially terrific frame material, but it guided one to design in a different way, exploit the material not kill it.

Was a Colorado company getting a Russian Aerospace company to make frames

And forks ,

but the making a seamless tapered fork blade required the resources
of an aerospace aircraft component maker , in order to pull that off..

typically the smaller shops use straight tubing,
even cutting out sheet and welding it into a tapered blade,

would be more than you guys would be willing to pay.

And Teledyne used CP tube, that came from piping used in really caustic materials
that would react to and/or eat up any other metals ..

Now there is the alloys ( "3-2, 6-4" ) that have more useful properties..



....

As Bob implied above, a lot of titanium tubing initially used in bicycle production was aerospace sourced. (Unverified rumor: this was the stuff that didn't pass inspection for aircraft use.) I remember seeing titanium-leg mountain bike forks in the early '90's, but building something that would look right on a road bike would be pretty tough. Even now they are pretty pricey: https://www.ebay.com/i/271143626844?chn=ps

Ti forks, flexy frames....
 

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b6244eaf92.jpg

​​​​​​guess I am in for trouble....

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The answer is the manufacturing costs and difficulty in working with ti vs. the benefit vs. steel/aluminum/carbon being fairly slight in a fork. Very few wanted to take on that project because few consumers would want to pay for it. This is a bit flexy on the front end, but not terribly so, and it's a QUICK climber.

They do exist...Panasonic made one with a ti fork...Fuji...

This one is a rather interesting example with ti fork, stem/bars (all one piece) and seat post.

Keep in mind that a Merlin frame in the early 90s, which is when ti got good IMO, ran over $3000! Double a De Rosa. They were already priced unobtanium...now add the cost of a ti fork!


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6359c0e368.jpg
Fork

Buncha custom builders who make ti forks. Oddity, Black Sheep, Meriwether, Ti Cycles. For production bikes it would be a silly expense when there are so many great carbon fiber forks on the market.

for historical reference, here's an article from Bicycle Guide magazine about the legendary Teledyne Titan. This was published back in the 1989 when a much improved class of titanium frame was easy to purchase and carbon was becoming the new standard. (IIRC)

page 1:
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page 2:
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page 3:
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page 4:
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page 5:
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page 6:
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The Titan was quite a radical bike back in the 70's! In the days of lugged steel frames, this really stood out!

Steve in Peoria