Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Remove Small Amount of Chrome to Check Crack

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Remove Small Amount of Chrome to Check Crack

Old 11-02-18, 03:15 PM
  #26  
Drillium Dude 
NNNN
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 9,568

Bikes: 1973 Colnago Super, 1973 Colnago Super concept, 1979 Medici Pro Strada, 1979 Dennis Sparrow, 1980 Alpina, 1981 Bianchi Super Leggera, 1983 Colnago Mexico, 1985 Casati Perfection, 1985 Somec Super Corsa, 2002 Bill Davidson custom

Mentioned: 173 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1130 Post(s)
Liked 213 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by base2 View Post
The hole didn't exist until just now. The hole would have began on the back side and progressively developed over a long time.
I am not ready to leap to that conclusion based upon the current evidence. That hole looks symmetrical, as if it were drilled. I'd like to see a few more pics of it from a couple angles to be sure.

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 11-02-18, 03:31 PM
  #27  
dailycommute
Senior Member
 
dailycommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: RiverRoad, ME
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That sucks, sorry man....That hole looks a bit jagged to be drilled. Wonder if perhaps the bike was stored via hanging from ceiling from front wheel. Only way I can think that water would have sat inside the frame in that spot. If you flush it and a lot of rust gunk flows out then probably what happened.
dailycommute is offline  
Old 11-02-18, 03:38 PM
  #28  
base2 
Senior Member
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 980

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 515 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 68 Times in 47 Posts
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitting_corrosion

Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I am not ready to leap to that conclusion based upon the current evidence. That hole looks symmetrical, as if it were drilled. I'd like to see a few more pics of it from a couple angles to be sure.

DD
As a sailor, this was predominantly the reason we engaged in constant preservation efforts on the ship. I've punched a needle gun right through 1/4 inch steel plates where the only indication was a tiny bubble on several occasions. Usually it resulted in a Hull Tech and a welder, a very long day and a lot of extra heart ache. It does seem weird the extreme localized nature of the thing, but in my own personal experience a nearly perfectly round rust hole is a true phenomenon.
base2 is offline  
Old 11-02-18, 05:46 PM
  #29  
xiaoman1 
Senior Member
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Weird Coast City of the Angeles
Posts: 2,112

Bikes: Paramounts, PX-10s, Mondias, Motobecane Grand Record, Specialized Allez Carbon, and Nishiki Tri-A

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times in 39 Posts
I concur with what others have said...best that you found it before building and riding it...consider yourself lucky.
Ben
__________________
Paramount, Mondia, Px-10, Moto
xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 11-02-18, 06:30 PM
  #30  
verktyg
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,995

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 540 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 100 Times in 70 Posts
Internal Rust

It doesn't take water to cause corrosion in chrome plated steel parts. The electroplating chemicals are highly corrosive and need to be flushed out and/or neutralized. That didn't/doesn't always happen with bicycles. It can take years for the steel to corrode through.

Here's an example corrosion from the inside out with an old chrome plated fork blade. Does that hole look familiar?



Occasionally I hang out a a local frame builder's shop. He has a lot of examples frames rusting out from the inside. One heart breaker is an early 70's Colnago with playing card decals. It's red and just my size but sadly the tubes are Swiss cheesed (and it wasn't even plated).

I have a mid 60's bike that's chrome plated under a spectacular paint job. It too has "rain stick" seat stays. I got it from Switzerland about 10 years ago and it sat partially assembled for several years. As I was rotating the frame on the bike stand to work on it I heard the telltale sounds so I pulled the BB to check out the chain stays. They were full of large rust flakes. Unfortunately the bike will remain a wall hanger.

A friend picked up an old uber light weight lugless French constructeur frame at a bike swap. When he got it home he noticed pitting in the fork blades and seat stays. Stage IV cancer!

As someone pointed out the OP's frame is going to be expensive to repair. He can maybe get by with a new rear triangle if the rest of the frame is worth keeping and then save some money by not re-plating it. If the forks are questionable then find a nice place to hang it.

@diomekes et al...

In reference to vent holes in the tubes, the main purpose is to allow gasses to escape while brazing. Without the holes, the heated expanding atmosphere in the tubes can push the molten brazing material out of the joint. On a lugged frame, it's mainly the seat stays, fork blades plus the seat and or head tube that have vent holes. The seat and or head tubes are drilled to provide an escape for gasses in the top tube during brazing.

Grape jelly or marmalade on that frame sir? Sorry...

verktyg

Last edited by verktyg; 11-02-18 at 06:37 PM.
verktyg is offline  
Old 11-02-18, 08:28 PM
  #31  
diomekes 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 106

Bikes: '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '88 Basso Loto, '89 Panasonic MC-5500

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I am not ready to leap to that conclusion based upon the current evidence. That hole looks symmetrical, as if it were drilled. I'd like to see a few more pics of it from a couple angles to be sure.

DD
I used a little pick to probe more once I noticed there was some depth to the crack, that's probably why it looks roundish.
diomekes is offline  
Old 11-02-18, 08:36 PM
  #32  
Drillium Dude 
NNNN
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 9,568

Bikes: 1973 Colnago Super, 1973 Colnago Super concept, 1979 Medici Pro Strada, 1979 Dennis Sparrow, 1980 Alpina, 1981 Bianchi Super Leggera, 1983 Colnago Mexico, 1985 Casati Perfection, 1985 Somec Super Corsa, 2002 Bill Davidson custom

Mentioned: 173 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1130 Post(s)
Liked 213 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by diomekes View Post
I used a little pick to probe more once I noticed there was some depth to the crack, that's probably why it looks roundish.
I defer to the guy who has his eyeballs on something he can hold in his hands. I did download the pic and zoom in, but I couldn't tell what was a hole and what might be surface rust after you flaked away some chrome.

What is sad is the frame looks in nearly perfect shape from the outside. Not even any spidering going on under the paint. Big frame, so it's not like you have lots of opportunities to find nice stuff in a size that fits you. I know you've been compensated somewhat, but you've ended up with a frame that is structurally unsound and will only serve as wall-hanger art. I hope you aren't out too much hard-earned money as a result...

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 11-03-18, 09:07 AM
  #33  
diomekes 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 106

Bikes: '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '88 Basso Loto, '89 Panasonic MC-5500

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Grape jelly or marmalade on that frame sir? Sorry...
Both, please? Yes, the hole looks very similar to that hole you posted, or at least I'm guessing it would if I removed all the chrome.

I guess I'm on the hunt again for a mid '90s race frame to use a 7400 groupset on. I've wanted one every since I missed out on a local Merckx Motorola TSX frame with the same groupset for $500! I'm thinking TSX, SLX, maybe EL, or even Tange Prestige would be nice.

I am out money on this frame, but not too much in the scheme of life (between $65 and $100 given the seller's refund, and hard to calculate exactly since it was a couple of transactions with several items each). Anyone have ideas on what to do with a nice TSX frame without stays? I might see if someone around here that's started framebuilding wants a project.

Thanks for helping me figure the frame's issues out.
diomekes is offline  
Old 11-03-18, 10:04 AM
  #34  
verktyg
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,995

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 540 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 100 Times in 70 Posts
If it weren't for the rain stick sound, I might consider it a localized problem at the bottom of that seat stay which could easily be replaced sans chrome. Do both sides have that "death rattle"? If so that's bad news. I'd go over the whole frames carefully looking for any signs of pinholes in the chrome. A good frame builder could give you a diagnosis in a few minutes...

My rain stick is a $2k wall hanger!

verktyg
verktyg is offline  
Old 11-03-18, 05:14 PM
  #35  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,630

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 588 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts
The OP could beat on the suspected areas with an aluminum rod, to verify if this cancer is widespread.

If not, and since this is a relatively fail-safe location for a frame to break, it is fathomable that the tube could be filled (from the bottom up, from another drilled hole) using JB-Weld, injected in using a syringe. I've done this to a carbon frame's seatstay, and I trust the plugged tube with it's 5,000psi-rated plug in it.
As with this frame, the Giant carbon frame had an intact seatstay but for a large contusion on the rear side of the tube, the result of the derailer and chain trying to wrap 360-degrees around the cassette.

Before attempting any repair, I would fill the tube with oxalic acid solution, wait several hours, then flush, repeating several times until no red tint in the solution issues forth. This will present bare metal to the filler and result in a tighter fit of the plug in the bore of the tube.

Last edited by dddd; 11-03-18 at 05:18 PM.
dddd is offline  
Old 11-03-18, 07:14 PM
  #36  
diomekes 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 106

Bikes: '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '88 Basso Loto, '89 Panasonic MC-5500

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm pretty sure it's just the seat stays with the sound, but definitely both of them. It seems only the non drive one got damaged in shipping.

​​​​​​​I'll try washing them out with that solution at least.

​​​​​​​Oh, what does the aluminum rod do?

Last edited by diomekes; 11-03-18 at 07:20 PM.
diomekes is offline  
Old 11-03-18, 07:32 PM
  #37  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,630

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 588 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times in 31 Posts
You just bang on the stays to check for any other areas where the steel has gone missing behind the chrome layer!

Just don't hit the main tubes too hard, they dent easily, but the seatstays aren't butted thin so can take a hard tap, and the chrome won't be scuffed by aluminum.

Also, the JB Weld is quite rigid, and is much stronger than 5,000psi in compression.
dddd is offline  
Old 11-04-18, 10:26 AM
  #38  
verktyg
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,995

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 540 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 100 Times in 70 Posts
Darwin Awards!

HEY! WATCH THIS! Your guide to joining the Darwin Awards! https://darwinawards.com/

5,0000 psi??? From their website: " J-B Weld has a tensile strength of 3960 PSI"

The weakest aluminum alloy has a tensile strength of 15,000 pis. The Aluminum used in beverage cans has a tensile strength of 37,000-41,000 psi. 6061 aluminum alloy is 40,000 to 45,000 psi. Alloys steels used in bike frames are ~120,000 psi....

JB Weld products are adhesives or fillers not a structural materials!!!






verktyg
verktyg is offline  
Old 11-05-18, 08:39 AM
  #39  
diomekes 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 106

Bikes: '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '88 Basso Loto, '89 Panasonic MC-5500

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There are those that live to tell the tale. For those that don't, well, we always have the Darwin Awards.
diomekes is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
MTBOGRE
Classic & Vintage
9
08-30-17 06:54 AM
RFC
Classic & Vintage
43
01-30-10 08:44 PM
Shang
Bicycle Mechanics
11
05-13-09 08:35 PM
Zephyr11
Mountain Biking
0
03-13-09 10:41 PM
tribble
General Cycling Discussion
5
07-26-05 03:57 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.