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A Name For These High Flange Hubs?

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A Name For These High Flange Hubs?

Old 11-01-18, 10:43 PM
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baumgrenze
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A Name For These High Flange Hubs?

Vintage Rear Hub, Unknown Make - 36 Hole - Help
Can anyone put a name on these hubs?

The high flanges have the same hole pattern as several brands, Sun Tour and Campagnolo. The front one appears to be 5 piece, two 18 spoke flanges, 2 hub ends, and a connector. The center parts are obviously steel, confirmed with a magnet, and the spoke flanges aluminum.





The wheels still turn smoothly, no grumbling, despite the surface rust. Are the hubs worth cleaning up?

They are on a 1985 (only year) Detel out of Green Bay, WI.

Thanks,
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Old 11-02-18, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by baumgrenze View Post
... The center parts are obviously steel, confirmed with a magnet, and the spoke flanges aluminum.

The wheels still turn smoothly, no grumbling, despite the surface rust. Are the hubs worth cleaning up?
The center parts are obviously steel, confirmed by the buttloads of rust... But are they worth cleaning up? I suppose it depends on what else you have to play with. The spokes are obviously shot; how about the rims? Take the wheels apart, clean up the hubs and then decide what to do with them is what I'd do. I have a drawer full of stuff like this
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Old 11-02-18, 04:04 AM
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Seems a bit silly to me, but if I’ve got to give them a name I choose Rusty.
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Old 11-02-18, 04:51 AM
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I would not spend any time on these based on the rust I can see.
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Old 11-02-18, 05:03 AM
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Old 11-02-18, 06:34 AM
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I don't know what they are either; this design was not uncommon. They don't look quite like the RFG hubs on Velobase, but pretty close. At any rate they are not particularly high quality hubs and I would not prize them. What are the rims?

If the rims are decent, and the wheels are usable as is, I'd use them. If the rims need to be replaced anyway, I wouldn't bother with the hubs.
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Old 11-02-18, 10:40 AM
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They might be Gnutti?
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Old 11-02-18, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jethin View Post
Seems a bit silly to me, but if I’ve got to give them a name I choose Rusty.
Or Lucky, perhaps....
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Old 11-02-18, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
They might be Gnutti?
Kinda look like the hubs on bike I have with a Gnutti skewer.
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Old 11-02-18, 06:36 PM
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Thanks For the Information and Questions

The rims are Weinmann. See below:



Again, I am not clear on what to call them. I looked for images on Google and did not find this particular product mark arrangement.

I know that the bicycle was built in 1985; Detel started and ended production that year. I've looked for but not found any information on their total bicycle production. I do know that they imported frames from Ishiwata fitting their CrMo frame sets from Japan with internationally sourced components.

The bicycle served me as a commuter bike from 1985 through 1997. In 1992 I noticed rust (see Lascauxcaveman's reply above) on the OEM steel spokes and rode it to a nearby independent bike shop. Some of you may remember the late Mike Garner of Garner's Pro Bicycles in Town & Country Center in Palo Alto, CA. He measured the spokes I would need to rebuild the wheels and sold me a full set of X5 stainless steel DT Swiss spokes. He made me promise I would not ride it home; he did not want me to get injured.

I was four years into an early retirement with more things to do than I could complete. The garage was full, so the bike sat under the eaves outside and slowly began to deteriorate. I'm happy to report that when I used and maintained it I used Phil Wood waterproof lubricants. I assume that is why the wheels and crankset still turn freely without complaint.

It is now time to begin the process of clearing the house and yard. I learned, too late, that it has some 'vintage value' that might be much more if it were clean and rust free. Even if I'd searched in 2002, I doubt I would have found what I now know about it. The bike and a box of parts and tools are being readied for a craigslist post and I am doing 'due diligence' so I can honestly describe what I am offering. It appears to be an unusual Detel because the frame badge reads; "Built With 025 Ishiwata CrMo * Butted Plain Tubes HT Forks & Stays." I realize that the 025 frame that Ishiwata marketed as the Super Cyclist might be rejected out of hand by some in favor of the lighter 024 (Ultra Strong) or the even lighter 022F (Speed Gallant) frames. In fact the 022 is 11 oz (12.5%) and the 024 is 4 oz (4.5%) lighter than the 025. Taken in the context of the total weight of a bike with rider, the 5-1/2 pound weight of the 025 frame and these small differences begin to approach insignificance.

I'd appreciate any further information and comments.

thanks
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Old 11-03-18, 04:08 AM
  #11  
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cheap 3 piece hubs

By 1985 almost all modern sporting road bikes had 700c diameter wheels, either clinchers or sewups. Frequently, bikes that came with sewups had them replaced with inexpensive clincher wheels.

Your wheels have 27" Weinmann rims dating from the early to mid 70's.

Also it was not unheard of that less than scrupulous bike mechanics swapped out wheels on customer's bikes that had Campy hubs and other quality brands with cheaper wheels.

During the early 70's there were a lot of... hmm, hmm "entry level" French bikes that came with those style hubs. Pelissier is one brand that comes to mind.




The biggest problem with those types of 3 piece hubs was there were no bearing cups. The balls ran in ball races formed into the ends of the steel center pieces...

How about: "Moyeux de bicyclettes indésirables"

There is a thin line between reusable and recyclable...

Cutting the spokes out will make it easier to recycle those wheels. The 27" alloy Weinmann rims could have some resale value for a C&V fan.

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Old 11-03-18, 10:18 AM
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My Austrian Steyr Clubman bike came with these wing-nutted, solid-axle hubs, laced to Rigida CroLux rims with galvanized spokes.

The odd thing was that they were identical in detail, yet the front hub was stamped as made in France, and the rear hub (shown) had a tiny "MADE IN ITALY" stamping visible here. They also had the integral dustcaps and BSA stamping visible in Chas' hubset but hidden by the axle in this photo.

With good chrome and bearings, a pair of these might justify having a wheelset built around them(?).

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Old 11-03-18, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
There is a thin line between reusable and recyclable...
Best line in the whole thread.
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Old 11-03-18, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
...
Also it was not unheard of that less than scrupulous bike mechanics swapped out wheels on customer's bikes that had Campy hubs and other quality brands with cheaper wheels.
I am shocked, shocked. Shocked, I tell you. Shocked! Yes .There it is, I used an exclamation point. Point is, okay, I'm not at all shocked.

Alas I have seen this myself. I worked with a mechanic who had a certain habit that he could not sustain on bike mechanic wages, and this led him to look for other, uh, opportunities.

Whatever the untold story is, I agree these are not 1985 wheels. 1972 is much more likely.
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Old 11-05-18, 04:37 PM
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-----

Locknuts, if we could see them, might be a clue.

There is a good possibility of marking(s) on hub barrel.

If you were to have a gentle go at the ferrous oxide presently abiding thither they might choose to glide into view.

Tip for readers - have found that the drive side flanges and these large flange five-piece rear hubs have a tendency to work loose. This is not a dangerous situation as there is no place for anything to go. When they have worked loose if you lay the machine on its side, drive side up, and spin the rear wheel like a roulette wheel the gear block can be seen to wobble about ogivally.

At least three different spoke head logos are visible so rear wheel has had some attention in its dim past...

-----

----
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Old 11-06-18, 03:36 AM
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Tightening the drive side flange

Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----Tip for readers - have found that the drive side flanges and these large flange five-piece rear hubs have a tendency to work loose.... When they have worked loose if you lay the machine on its side, drive side up, and spin the rear wheel like a roulette wheel the gear block can be seen to wobble about ogivally.----
juvela, I misread this and thought you said: "...lay the machine in the driveway....drive side up" You can guess what I envisioned....

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Old 11-08-18, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bark_eater View Post
Kinda look like the hubs on bike I have with a Gnutti skewer.
-----

Cast me vote with these members.

Hub definitely not a Perrin (Pelissier/New Star/Excellto/etc.) product.

Also not anything from Maillard.

If OP has means of telling difference betwixt BSC and Italian threading it might well show to be Italian.

A great many of these were produced from the later sixties through the mid-seventies, and although unmarked, as stated they typically appeared with Gnutti skewers.

The quality three-piece Gnutti hubs of the 1950's and early 1960's were produced by FB. This has been discussed and documented on the CR list. For the later ordinary quality Gnutti hubs do not know if produced by the co. or if contract manufactured.

Image of locknut(s) would be of help.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 11-08-18 at 05:56 PM. Reason: spellin'
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Old 11-12-18, 01:00 AM
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Thanks for Adding More Information

I'm working on this as time permits. I ran some 2500 grit wet-or-dry paper with 99% isopropanol as lubricant and didn't reveal anything I could see with the shop lighting I had available. I will try again tomorrow in the daylight, but I've got 2 medical appts to attend to as well.

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Old 11-13-18, 06:15 PM
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-----

thank you for the update.

no doubt you have sound reason the 1985 date for the bicycle.

as mentioned by Chas. above, 27" wheels were pretty much gone by this date on new bicycles.

would be willing to wager "dalluhz to doughnuts" that the overlocknut dimension here is 120mm and that the gear block is 5V.

like the 27" wheel, the 5V gear block and its companion 120mm hub had pretty much gone the way of the dodo on new bicycles by 1985.

if cycle actually a 1985 machine then wheels are earlier.

reasonably confident hub is Gnutti and the manufacturer had ceased play by 1985 so we have an incongruity here...

-----
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Old 11-20-18, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

thank you for the update.

no doubt you have sound reason the 1985 date for the bicycle.

Detel started and ended production in Green Bay, WI, in 1985.

One of many hits here:


Detel.

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https://budgetbicyclectr.com/1985-de...d-bicycle.html

" Only two models were made, the higher-end Marathon (Ishiwata 022) and the more standard Legend (Ishiwata 024). There was also a numeric designation (either 6000 or 4000) added to the model name to indicate the grade of the componentry."

Curiously, the frame I have is Ishiwata 025.



as mentioned by Chas. above, 27" wheels were pretty much gone by this date on new bicycles.

would be willing to wager "dalluhz to doughnuts" that the overlocknut dimension here is 120mm and that the gear block is 5V.

Please help me with terminology. A search for "5V gear block" returned nothing of use to me.
You are correct. The overlock nut dimension is 120 mm.


like the 27" wheel, the 5V gear block and its companion 120mm hub had pretty much gone the way of the dodo on new bicycles by 1985.

My memory (not as sharp as it once was) says that I was offered a custom cassette and had one installed. My notes say:"The crankset is SR (SakaeRingyo) Melt Forging 171.5 mm length, The chainrings are 62 and 39 teeth. The rear cassette is 14, 17, 20, 24, and 28 teeth.
I chose the rear cassette to offer low effort pedaling on my flatland commute.
" if cycle actually a 1985 machine then wheels are earlier.

reasonably confident hub is Gnutti and the manufacturer had ceased play by 1985 so we have an incongruity here...

-----
Thanks for the helpful information,

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Old 11-20-18, 12:32 PM
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[QUOTE=baumgrenze;20671163]...Please help me with terminology. A search for "5V gear block" returned nothing of use to me.[.../QUOTE]

5V = 5 Vitesse (French) or 5 Velocita (Italian) , both of which translate to "5 speed" and refers to the number of cogs typically found on a freewheel used with hubs having a 120mm OLD (Over Locknut Dimension).

I think these hubs look a like a Pelissier product.
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Old 11-20-18, 04:32 PM
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-----

If hub a hollow axle product of Etablissements Perrin we would expect to see a two-flat axle locknut with radial serrations as in the excellent images posted by Verktyg in message nr. eleven above.

If a Gnutti product locknut will exhibit six sides and have a raised circular ridge.

Readers who closely examine flange contour and bearing housing contour will note subject hub more closely resembles a Gnutti product.

-----
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Old 11-20-18, 10:49 PM
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A Few Last Observations

I did a bit more cleaning of the rear hub and took a few photos which I've attached.

The freewheel is a Shimano. It was frozen, but with penetrating oil and a vibrating engraving tool in one of the 'tool pits' I managed to free it completely. I tried using my spline tool to remove the freewheel itself, but eventually gave up. I'd hoped to disassemble the cluster and clean up the components. Do I understand correctly that the threads are in the dark seam just above the word Shimano and that the off direction is counter-clockwise??

I decided to otherwise clean out the internal 'bearing' surfaces. Despite the rust that formed on the outer surface of the hub, the inside cleaned up nicely. It is a tribute to the Phil Wood waterproof grease I bought at Wheelsmith when I began doing bike maintenance that I found no internal rust.

The image from the right side (opposite the freewheel & cluster) suggests that the center section of the hub might be a seamed tube unless that is an internal retaining ring. There seems to be a 'ghost' of the seam running away across the tube from the obvious break in the 'ring.'

The rear hub takes nine 1/4" ball bearings.Juvela suggested that the locknuts might be diagnostic in assigning a maker. I took a photo of the axle before I reinserted it. I found that the washers on the font axle have internal teats or keys that engage the keyway cut into the threads. I did not find them on the rear washers, but the originals may have gotten lost in during an earlier maintenance and I replaced them with plain ones. It is clear that keyed washers work better in adjusting the bearing play. Do the notches in the 'acorn nuts' have any diagnostic value? In some situations they signal a left hand thread, don't they?

I loosened the axle on the front wheel and added a bit of grease and then reset the locknuts. It was getting dark and dinnertime, so I took no photos.

Both wheels and the crank now turn smoothly.

Thanks again for every contributor's participation and for the knowledge they shared.

baumgrenze




Rear hub, left or freewheel face.


Rear hub, right face


Rear axel, keyway is up on the right and down on the left.

Last edited by baumgrenze; 11-20-18 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 11-21-18, 12:27 AM
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As I was shutting down my machine, I notice the markings on the Shimano freewheel.

To the right of the name is stamped a "S" or "5" enclosed in a circle.

To the left is a fainter stamp the appears to read "S H"

Also, the removal pin holes are not 'perfectly' placed. The left one is closer to the inner edge than the right one in the image. Was this done 'intentionally' when it was made?

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Old 11-24-18, 02:07 PM
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-----

mechanicing tip -

thin wall freewheel removal tools are readily available for this pattern of splined body.

they permit one to remove the gear block without disturbing the axle set.

the older thick wall removers required one to remove the axle locknut and spacer in order to be inserted.

thank you for all of these updates; good to read matters are moving forward with the bike.

-----
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