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A Degree in Bike-Building!

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A Degree in Bike-Building!

Old 11-14-18, 09:23 PM
  #1  
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A Degree in Bike-Building!

Too bad we aren't about 45 years younger...
MSCS Bike Building Degree
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Old 11-14-18, 09:36 PM
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I’m liking the fact that bicycles are becoming more and more mainstream, used to be we were geeks for riding bikes bitd
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Old 11-14-18, 09:52 PM
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I read that qbp, trek, and erik's helped with staffing.
cool that local companies are involved.
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Old 11-15-18, 10:18 AM
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Nice! I hope this has the effect of increasing the money people in the business earn.
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Old 11-15-18, 10:50 AM
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I am guessing that trek being not far does not hurt......I understand from @gomango that Winona State in Minnesota sends a lot of grads from it's carbon fiber program to trek
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Old 11-15-18, 12:07 PM
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3 colleges were at the last NAHBS for frames and bike tech, 1 from Canada and 2 from the USA
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Old 11-15-18, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I’m liking the fact that bicycles are becoming more and more mainstream, used to be we were geeks for riding bikes bitd
People have been riding bicycles since the late 1800's. Or, are you saying back around 1817 that bicycles were very limited in their application?

What has changed since perhaps the 1970's is that high-end bicycles have become more mainstream. Nonetheless, there still are a lot of cheap bicycles out there.

There have been bicycle building classes and apprenticeship classes for quite some time. But, perhaps this is a step forward to make it into a 2 year "college" class.

Hopefully they are able to incorporate multiple materials including steel, titanium, aluminum, carbon fiber, lugged, brazed, and welded, as well as multiple manufacturing techniques such as round tubes and mandrel forming tubes vs hydro forming tubes vs CF layup vs rolled & welded tubes.

Can we bring back Schwinn electro-forging?

For the USA to return to manufacturing dominance will require more robotics.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:12 PM
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I don't really understand this program.

From a jobs perspective it makes no sense. There are almost no frames being fabricated in the US. The companies producing a small number of carbon frames here, like Trek and Allied, don't need workers trained in bicycle design and fabrication. They hire technicians and train them to work with their molds and lay-up techniques. The engineers and machinists handle the design and tooling, and these are trained engineers and machinists, not kids with a 2 year bicycle science associates degree.

The other people producing frames are custom framebuilders. A small handful of tiny companies with a few employees (Seven, Moots, Indy Fab, Firefly, etc...). The rest are one or two man shops that have no ambitions to grow. Not much in the way of jobs coming from either of those.

Is the aim of the program for the majority of graduates to start their own business? Most custom frame shops struggle to survive. There is simply not enough of a market for made-in-the-US, high end frames to sustain a workforce larger than what already exists.

The college rep is quoted in the article saying the degree will allow students to be hired into non-bike-related fields. Sounds like a fantasy to me. Employers look for candidates with relevant experience. If I were deciding between a candidate trained in machining and a candidate trained in using a mill to miter bike frame tubes, I would choose the machinist.

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Old 11-15-18, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
People have been riding bicycles since the late 1800's. Or, are you saying back around 1817 that bicycles were very limited in their application?

What has changed since perhaps the 1970's is that high-end bicycles have become more mainstream. Nonetheless, there still are a lot of cheap bicycles out there.

There have been bicycle building classes and apprenticeship classes for quite some time. But, perhaps this is a step forward to make it into a 2 year "college" class.

Hopefully they are able to incorporate multiple materials including steel, titanium, aluminum, carbon fiber, lugged, brazed, and welded, as well as multiple manufacturing techniques such as round tubes and mandrel forming tubes vs hydro forming tubes vs CF layup vs rolled & welded tubes.

Can we bring back Schwinn electro-forging?

For the USA to return to manufacturing dominance will require more robotics.
I'm sure bicycles were extremely popular before cars took over. I'm just not that old to remember those times.

Compared to when the average BF C&Ver started riding till now, bicycles are much more mainstream.

I owned a car when I was in high school, and lived 15 miles from town. It was considered extremely weird for me to ride into school a few times a week when the weather got nicer. Now my commute is 9 miles to work. It's not considered weird.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I'm sure bicycles were extremely popular before cars took over. I'm just not that old to remember those times.

Compared to when the average BF C&Ver started riding till now, bicycles are much more mainstream.

I owned a car when I was in high school, and lived 15 miles from town. It was considered extremely weird for me to ride into school a few times a week when the weather got nicer. Now my commute is 9 miles to work. It's not considered weird.
for me biking to high school would have been weird as it was 2 blocks away I did walk in -50 degrees though...... but I would bike 20 miles each way to get a taco at "Taco John's" an early (mid 70's) Montana Taco chain....that was considered.....eccentric
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Old 11-15-18, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
for me biking to high school would have been weird as it was 2 blocks away I did walk in -50 degrees though...... but I would bike 20 miles each way to get a taco at "Taco John's" an early (mid 70's) Montana Taco chain....that was considered.....eccentric
Taco Johns is still around and is still awesome. The put tater tots in a lot of things which is inspired. Potato Oles are basically nachos but with tater tots instead of chips. It's glorious.

I always thought it was just a midwestern thing. The internet tells me it started in Wyoming.

What's this thread about?
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Old 11-15-18, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
I don't really understand this program.

From a jobs perspective it makes no sense. There are almost no frames being fabricated in the US. The companies producing a small number of carbon frames here, like Trek and Allied, don't need workers trained in bicycle design and fabrication. They hire technicians and train them to work with their molds and lay-up techniques. The engineers and machinists handle the design and tooling, and these are trained engineers and machinists, not kids with a 2 year bicycle science associates degree.

The other people producing frames are custom framebuilders. A small handful of tiny companies with a few employees (Seven, Moots, Indy Fab, Firefly, etc...). The rest are one or two man shops that have no ambitions to grow. Not much in the way of jobs coming from either of those.

Is the aim of the program for the majority of graduates to start their own business? Most custom frame shops struggle to survive. There is simply not enough of a market for made-in-the-US, high end frames to sustain a workforce larger than what already exists.

The college rep is quoted in the article saying the degree will allow students to be hired into non-bike-related fields. Sounds like a fantasy to me. Employers look for candidates with relevant experience. If I were deciding between a candidate trained in machining and a candidate trained in using a mill to miter bike frame tubes, I would choose the machinist.
Don't let logic get in the way of a good story.

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Old 11-15-18, 03:06 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread View Post
I don't really understand this program.

From a jobs perspective it makes no sense. There are almost no frames being fabricated in the US. The companies producing a small number of carbon frames here, like Trek and Allied, don't need workers trained in bicycle design and fabrication. They hire technicians and train them to work with their molds and lay-up techniques. The engineers and machinists handle the design and tooling, and these are trained engineers and machinists, not kids with a 2 year bicycle science associates degree.

The other people producing frames are custom framebuilders. A small handful of tiny companies with a few employees (Seven, Moots, Indy Fab, Firefly, etc...). The rest are one or two man shops that have no ambitions to grow. Not much in the way of jobs coming from either of those.

Is the aim of the program for the majority of graduates to start their own business? Most custom frame shops struggle to survive. There is simply not enough of a market for made-in-the-US, high end frames to sustain a workforce larger than what already exists.

The college rep is quoted in the article saying the degree will allow students to be hired into non-bike-related fields. Sounds like a fantasy to me. Employers look for candidates with relevant experience. If I were deciding between a candidate trained in machining and a candidate trained in using a mill to miter bike frame tubes, I would choose the machinist.
In today's business model where the bottom line of the day is all that matters, you might hire the bike guy for half of what the machinist wants only to find out he may or may not pull it off.
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Old 11-15-18, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I'm sure bicycles were extremely popular before cars took over.(...)
Important remark. In the US that was somewhere in the 1920's or maybe even earlier. In western Europe that didn't happen until the 1960's, and by then the bicycle had such a foothold, that cars never managed to fully take over, like in the US. Explains a lot about the difference in the way bicycles are perceived on both sides of the pond.

Back to the main program.
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Old 11-15-18, 03:57 PM
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In the USA, high tariffs for a period did not help either. Bikes stayed expensive. Other transportation modes motored over them.

As to the program, someone has to design them, no matter where they are created.
Industrial Arts education has almost vanished in the USA- I witnessed the shutting down of a University program, the reason... there will be soon no demand for shop teachers...
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Old 11-15-18, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
In the USA, high tariffs for a period did not help either. Bikes stayed expensive. Other transportation modes motored over them.

As to the program, someone has to design them, no matter where they are created.
Industrial Arts education has almost vanished in the USA- I witnessed the shutting down of a University program, the reason... will there be soon no demand for shop teachers...
will there be soon no demand for shop teachers...[/QUOTE]

Unbelievable, only in America. That sucks.
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Old 11-15-18, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I'm sure bicycles were extremely popular before cars took over. I'm just not that old to remember those times.

Compared to when the average BF C&Ver started riding till now, bicycles are much more mainstream.

I owned a car when I was in high school, and lived 15 miles from town. It was considered extremely weird for me to ride into school a few times a week when the weather got nicer. Now my commute is 9 miles to work. It's not considered weird.
Times are certainly changing.

But, it is frequently pointed out that a few things happened in the 1970's and 1980's. The so-called "Bicycle Boom".

The "10-Speed" came into mainstream.

And we had the OPEC Oil Crisis. Oh, and the cars just crawled along at 55 MPH.

I can't say how frequently I rode my bike to school. About 2 or 3 miles in gradeschool, and about 8 miles in middle school, high school, & some in college. It was at least some of the time.

I suppose I don't know of any other kid that was doing the same distance to school, but there was always maybe a dozen bikes locked to the various bike racks around school.

Reports seem to indicate that new adult bicycle sales really peaked in the 70's and 80's. But, we now have a far better market of "good" used bikes, and I'd feel comfortable riding any geared road bike made in the last 50 years, whereas as bicycles were changing in the 60's and 70's, the number of quality used bikes were very limited.

You're currently up in Portland. I did some Portland commuting in the mid to late 90's. The Beaverton-Hillsdale and Terwilliger paths were about the same back then as they are today. But, Portland has certainly been improving riverfront access. The Sellwood/Tacoma bridge was a nightmare back then, but I could hold a pretty good pace across the bridge then too. While much of the Springwater trail existed, connections were poor, especially around McLaughlin Blvd. There were always a few bike commuters in the 90's and bikes on the racks, but I don't remember any in my immediate circle of peers.

Anyway, it is hard to say how much numbers of bike commuters have changed. Infrastructure certainly has improved.
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Old 11-15-18, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
will be soon no demand for shop teachers...
Unbelievable, only in America. That sucks.

I need to make sure my niece and nephew sign up for shop courses in High School.

Things are changing. There certainly is demand for things like general auto maintenance, although cars are now lasting a bit longer between maintenance intervals.

People keep talking about new vehicles being too complicated to work on, but the basics all remain the same. Tires, water, water circulation, electrical generation, starter motors, etc.

I do think it would be a tough market for a small builder to break into. Although there is also some market for welders & etc at smaller established manufacturers. Just not that many.

It seems like some of the "frame schools" are teaching home hobbyists that wish to build maybe a half a dozen frames, then hang it up.

A "college program" has to be more for young kids really wanting to try out a career.

I agree, it appears to me to be a tight market, but there are some unique advances going on now too.
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Old 11-15-18, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Anyway, it is hard to say how much numbers of bike commuters have changed. Infrastructure certainly has improved.
Well, someone's tracking it somehow:



Data: US Census Bureau
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Old 11-15-18, 05:38 PM
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Interesting chart! I wonder what leads to those downturns. There is one at the end of the timeline for every city except DC, which had an upturn.
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Old 11-15-18, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Interesting chart! I wonder what leads to those downturns. There is one at the end of the timeline for every city except DC, which had an upturn.
Sometimes we confuse swings in data with noise. If I don't see a measure of variance (standard deviation) or confidence level associated with it, I'm ready to ask my friends in Missouri what they think.
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Old 11-15-18, 10:02 PM
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Good answer, @gugie.
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