Help Identifying Frame
 

Hi there, I'm wondering if anyone might be able to help identifying a frame. It's from my uncle and I'd like to fix it up for him, the only problem is that he spray painted it a long time ago and can't recall make/model. I haven't had any luck with the serial number as it doesn't seem to match any of the common formats. Any help is appreciated! Here is the info I have and some photos (apologies in advance this my first try sharing pics):

Serial: 1910 LE
RD: Campagnolo Nuovo Valentino Extra
FD: Simplex
Crank: Sugino Maxy 3-bolt
Brakes: Universal Mod. 61
Stem and Handlebars: GB
Rims: Cerchio Fiamme (red label)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cfaf21c7b8.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...13b19b86f9.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...862f760453.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...63b163392a.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e35c27a1c9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6f532c2ae2.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...697e613e7f.jpg

Nice! Don't know what it is, but I think it's older than it looks. Fifties, early sixties? What caught my eye is the location of the cable stop on the chain stay. Seems like an odd location for a modern derailleur. What brand are the dropouts?

The GB stamps are for Geoffrey Butler, could the frame be a Geoffrey Butler too?

I believe "GB" stands for "Gerry Burgess."
Brent

Ah yes. Well that demonstrates my knowledge of British cycling history.

Old British or French Frame
 

An ounce of knowledge is worth a pound of guesses.... :eek:

This is a frankenbike with a high quality British or French frame maybe from the 1950's???

Serial numbers tend to be red herrings...

The lugs are Nervex Serie Legere Model 48/161 with 158 nozles. These were not very commonly used. (Maybe Oscar Egg on an earlier frame???)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...481319c1b0.jpghttps://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...deca5e44c3.jpg

The fork crown looks like a reworked Wagner???

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...517ef74b12.jpg

The seat stay eyes required a lot of work so that indicates quality.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f6a6625ae1.jpg

The headset appears to be a TDC Continental Prima which was the top British model from that era. That narrows it down to a British frame. The GB bars and stem are British to but from the 1970's.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...21e8442d2e.jpg

Allowing for paint thickness, on a British frame the top tube should be ~25.5mm to 25.6mm, the seat and down tubes 28.6mm to 28.8mm. A 26mm+ top tube would be metric, indicating maybe French.

What size is the seatpost? 26.8mm, 27.0mm or 27.2mm would indicate lighter gage tubing, perhaps Reynolds 531.

There were dozens of small builders in the UK. You may never find the actual builder. Just consider it a "barstard" and enjoy it.

One odd thing (among many) is the drilled hole and cutaway on the Simplex front derailleur cage. Another is what looks like a broken off tang of some kind on the bottom bracket????

verktyg :50:

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The axle locknuts of the bicycle's Nuovo Tipo hubs will provide a date.

Of course, since it appears to have been assembled from bits not too much weight should be placed on this marking... ;)

Very nice frame showing good work.

Have you discovered any markings on the frame ends?

Thanks so much for posting. :)

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Strange indeed, it actually has 3 cable stops on the chainstay, 1 just after the BB, 1 in the middle and the one at the back. :foo:

What are the shifters, Campagnolo Gran Sport? What are they mounted to-- is it a normal brazed on boss, or something unusual?

Something (mainly the cable stop on the chain stay) suggests some bits that were originally brazed onto the frame were removed before its last paint job, such as mudguard eyelets, pump pegs, perhaps a derailleur tab on the chain stay. Looks like they drilled holes for a water bottle cage, too; that might be a problem.

This is great info, thank you very much everyone. Looks like I have some homework to do! I'll see what measurements and date codes I can find based on the suggestions above and repost tomorrow (waiting on amazon to deliver some calipers so good timing).

The other thing I was toying with was a re-paint/powdercoat. Seeing that it might be hard to determine what it originally looked like, and also most likely a frankenbike, I'm second guessing that idea. Any suggestions/experience doing that with older bikes in that regard are appreciated as well (not so much the process as I've found a number of posts on that, more so if the frame's age would not make it advisable).

Thanks again everyone for your help and feedback!

If you do go for repaint it powder coat, I strongly recommend taking a very close look at the bare frame and fork when the paint is off. You never know what you will learn.

There may be spots of brass where something like a pump peg was once attached. Or there may be black stains from where the frame had once rusted. I was able to conclusively identify the maker of one frame I have because the original decals protected the steel better than the paint. Where the decals had been, the steel was silvery clean, but where there had been no decals there was the black stains.

If you are going to repaint it. Try to carefully sand the down tube and top tube. Perhaps the original decals and or paint might be below. We can only hope.

So I had the chance to take some measurements of the bike, not sure if these will be helpful, thanks verktyg for pointing these out:
Top tube: 25.8
Down and seat tube: 28.8
Seat post: 26.8

I think sanding is definitely an option, would you be able to recommend a grit for the job Velo Mule? There are some spots that have scratched away where it looks like it might be chrome underneath the current paint. The spots are very small but outside of the some rust spots it looks like it might be in good condition.

Also had a chance to take some additional pics of the bike. Unfortunately nothing on the dropouts I can make out but there are some unique (to me anyway!) things I've tried to capture. Apologies if this is information overload! Thanks to everyone for commenting on this, it's become quite the learning process. Also nothing I could see on the hub lock nuts forgot to take that pic.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8762c8b422.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a1290c4d8d.jpg

Rear drop out with what might be an earlier RD hanger?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fd659acd2e.jpg

NDS rear drop out
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...232875ef0d.jpg

Drive side braze-on cable stops, two on same side.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...323a7d5951.jpg

Can take off to look a little closer but do not see model markings.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2cd2f3081b.jpg

Can take off to look a little closer but do not see model markings.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d2d8dd3c74.jpg

Back side FD
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...64f6ff8ca0.jpg

Closer look FD

Some additional pics of what looks like a grease nipple on top of the bottom bracket shell and the top tube cable guides which look like they are labeled "GB". Also apologies doing some work in the basement so it's a bit of a mess.

Not sure if I've reached the end of the line on identifying this but thank you again everyone for your help!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37179d9836.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...dfa27806e7.jpg

Judging by the level of quality, the fork crown, lugs and the serial/frame number, I'm inclined to think that this is an Ephgrave ("LE" in the serial = Les Ephgrave).

This is most likely their (slightly) cheaper and less elaborate (at least when compared to the No.1) Italia model from the early 50s.
I agree with [MENTION=73614]rhm[/MENTION] that it had some cosmetic surgery done at some point.


It's a very nice frame; I'd love to see what you do with it.

Here are some pics:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fea7033169.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c39876dea6.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d528df6609.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...63d98b3d19.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37c5f896c7.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...11535bac4a.jpg

The braze-on under the bottom bracket, and cable stops on the chain stay, might have been used for an Osgear?

Curiouser and curiouser!

The eyelets on the rear dropouts are more likely for mudguards, not a derailleur.

The vertical dropouts are pretty unusual. This bike was made for a derailleur that didn't mount on the dropout. Judging by the double cable stop, it was a derailleur that used two cables. Nivex, perhaps? How did the Simplex 543 mount?

I like the Ephgrave theory.

rhm, the double cable stops are on the downtube, it looks like only single cable stops behind the bottom bracket. I believe some Osgears had a tension release cable for the front arm and the cable stop setup on the OP's frame would fit this arrangement.
I also think MauriceMoss may be spot-on with Ephgrave.

I saw your suggestion of the Osgear and have to admit, with apologies, that I didn't think about it seriously. I'm not familiar with all the Osgear variants.

The frame is a bit more like an archaeological site than usual. These cable stops and guides are probably original. The shifter bosses, whatever they are, are probably not original. I'd like to look over every inch of the frame and see I'd there are more signs of changes made.

Returning to the Osgear, I guess this would be the Cyclo Ace or the like? I can't find complete photos of that system. Was it sometimes mounted on a brazed on tab? What shifter(s)?

Yep, I concur that Mr. Moss has nailed another, and the Ephgrave has been given both some braze-ons and some grind-offs...looking forward to seeing the progress as OP restores this one!

No apologies necessary, my posts are usually short and I probably leave out relevant details.

My knowledge of Osgear and Osgear-like derailleurs is very basic at best.

My first guess for a derailleur setup on the OP's frame would be one of the better Osgear units with the adjustable tension arm cable, and yes, some Osgears were mounted to brazed on tabs.
The shifter(s) were probably a right side mounted double levered unit.

I found this drawing in the Rebour book (Van der Pas and Berto, p. 50)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4894/...69b419d5_k.jpg

Note the dropouts!

Caption reads "Modified Cyclo derailleur and split hub, Le Cycle 12 August 1950."

There is another drawing that would make sense on p. 48:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4806/...1030377b_k.jpg
Again, note the dropouts. The caption indicates this design was shown in London in 1948. Both these designs (probably) came from the English Cyclo company (there was also a French one).

I won't pretend to understand what has been modified in the first one (I suspect it's the split hub) but I believe what we see here would match the cable stops etc on OP's bike frame. A Cyclo derailleur hanger was probably cut off.