Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Suntour indexing compatibility

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Suntour indexing compatibility

Reply

Old 12-06-18, 01:43 PM
  #1  
capnjonny 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
capnjonny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Saratoga calif.
Posts: 403

Bikes: Miyata 610(66cm), Raleigh Record Ace (64 cm), GT vantara Hybrid (64cm), Nishiki International (64cm), Custom touring bike (66 cm) , Peugeot U 08 rat rod (64 cm), Trek 800 Burning Man helicopter bike

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Suntour indexing compatibility

I notice that there is not any current discussion about indexing suntour components.


I have been finding some parts in the bin at the bike exchange. I am going to lay them out on the table here and ask you guys weather they can be combined into an indexing system



1 Sachs Centara rear derailleur ( I heard that Sachs derailleurs would work with Shimano indexing)

2 Suntour mountech rear der

3 Suntour superb pro rear der

4 Suntour accushift plus bar end shifter

5 Suntour stem mount power shifter

6 Suntour XC pro accushift plus thumb shifter rear (multi mountain?)

7 Suntour XC Pro power control thumb shifter front (friction?)


more questions

can you use a older rear derailleur like a Suntour V GT or Cyclone with an indexing shifter?

Can you use an older Suntour Freewheel like a Perfect 5 or 6 speed with an indexing system

can you use a shimano hyperglide 5 or 6 speed with a Suntour indexing shifter .


These old Suntour shifters are in good shape and I would love to put them to good use.

Thanks in advance for any help.


Cap'n Jonny
capnjonny is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 02:50 PM
  #2  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,651
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Suntour Accushift shifters pull about 10% less cable per click than their Shimano (SIS) equivalents. I am comparing like for like here, as in 6 speed to 6 speed.

And, indexing Suntour rear derailleurs have approximately a 10% greater actuation ratio than Shimano. Best I can estimate is around 1.8:1, versus 1.67:1 - versus SIS.

So, mixing and matching doesn't work. The math doesn't work, nor does it in real life. I've tried.

You may get some feedback from some who say that they're running mix 'n match combinations just fine, but in my experience, roughly 50% of the general cycling public is used to horribly mistuned indexing, which features continuous drivetrain clattering and random gear jumping.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 02:59 PM
  #3  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 917

Bikes: '04 Felt SR91, '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Puch Bergmeister

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 244 Post(s)
I have an anecdote that only confirms what Dave Mayer above says. In my case, it was 6-speed Accushift shifters, a Suntour 6-speed non-Accushift freewheel, and a Blue Line derailleur. The 4 larger cogs shifted fine, the smallest as well, but that fifth cog was always skipped. At least it was consistent.
noobinsf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 03:01 PM
  #4  
top506
Death fork? Naaaah!!
 
top506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The other Maine, north of RT 2
Posts: 4,452

Bikes: '71 Gitane Super Corsa, '73 Atala Giro d'Italia, '73 Schwinn Super Sport, '76 Viscount Aerospace Pro, '81 Miyata 710, '84 Ross Signature 290s, '85 Miele Gara, '87 Miyata 512, '89 Centurion Ironman, many more

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Originally Posted by capnjonny View Post
can you use a older rear derailleur like a Suntour V GT or Cyclone with an indexing shifter?
I have used V Luxe and V Luxe GT RDs with Shimano 7 speed shifters and freewheels. Indexes almost perfect out of the box, dead perfect if you replace the upper pully with a Shimano 'Centeron' one.

Top
__________________
You know it's going to be a good day when the stem and seatpost come right out.

(looking for a picture and not seeing it? Thank the Photobucket fiasco.PM me and I'll link it up.)
top506 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 03:04 PM
  #5  
amedias
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Shifter cable pull x mech ratio = sprocket spacing.

you can either play the game of mixing and matching shifters and mechs to achieve (or not) the sprocket spacing you have or vice versea, match your sprockets to your gears. Sometimes youll get lucky, like 10s Campag shifters with Shimano mechs indexing perfectly on Shimano 8 speed sprockets, other times it’ll be close but not quite and you might need to either adjust sprocket spacing or pull ratios to get what you want.

there are many setups that will work, and equally many that won’t, get your calculator out and start playing!

i have several bikes with CampagTourNo* setups working perfectly, no skips no jumps no chattering, but they did need custom sprocket spacing...

* Campag 10speed ergo with Suntour Vx mech and Shimano 8 speed cassette with custom spacers.
amedias is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 03:56 PM
  #6  
clubman 
Youngman Grand
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 4,957

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Originally Posted by capnjonny View Post

...Suntour accushift plus bar end shifter...
Which one? Friction barcons work on both sides. With Accushift, the right shifter has selectable settings and it came in both 6 and 7 speed versions. A couple of nice pics will tell the tale.
clubman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 05:58 PM
  #7  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 19,079

Bikes: 1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Originally Posted by top506 View Post
I have used V Luxe and V Luxe GT RDs with Shimano 7 speed shifters and freewheels. Indexes almost perfect out of the box, dead perfect if you replace the upper pully with a Shimano 'Centeron' one.

Top
I have the same experience. When a friend's daughter messed up her Shimano derailleur, I gave them my old pre-index SunTour VGT, which indexed just fine with her 7-speed Shimano shift lever.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324
Capo: 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 10:02 PM
  #8  
RiddleOfSteel
Lugged, Dura-Ace Glory
 
RiddleOfSteel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,935

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prologue - '74 Schwinn Paramount P15 - '8X Davidson Impulse - '85 Schwinn Peloton - '88 Masi Nuova Strada - '15 Cannondale CAAD10 Disc - '81 Trek 710

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 585 Post(s)
I had a Shimano 7-speed SIS shifter index a 7-speed cassette (5.0mm spacing, as is standard) with a Suntour Superbe Tech RD. Worked great! Got lucky!
RiddleOfSteel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-18, 10:12 PM
  #9  
elcraft
elcraft
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Greater Boston
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Originally Posted by top506 View Post
I have used V Luxe and V Luxe GT RDs with Shimano 7 speed shifters and freewheels. Indexes almost perfect out of the box, dead perfect if you replace the upper pully with a Shimano 'Centeron' one.

Top
Could you provide a little more info about this process of swapping out the original Suntour upper pulley for a Shimano one? I was under the impression that the securing bolts were of different diameters and they could not be switched.
elcraft is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 01:38 AM
  #10  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,625

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2245 Post(s)
The yellowjersey.org site has a PDF (not text searchable) copy of the Suntour Accushift Problem Solving manual. It doesn't include my bike's specific 7-speed GPX group but the info is still applicable.

I've been using it the past week or so to resolve some long-standing problems with index shifting my '89 Centurion Ironman with GPX group. Going through the manual it appears the Accushift system was very picky about components. Last year I became so frustrated I removed the GPX rear derailleur and substituted an older Shimano 600 in friction-only mode, since it wouldn't index either. But it ran more smoothly with less drivetrain drag so I stuck with it for almost a year.

However I was determined to make the GPX system work in indexing mode. At the moment I have the indexing problem resolved but it took some experimenting. All the original GPX components are back on the bike, other than the original freewheel, chain (a POS and worn out) and cables/housings.

I swapped chains around until settling on KMC Z51, a SunRace 14-28 freewheel to replace the Suntour 13-24, and replacing the cable and single bit of cable housing between the chainstay and RD. Making the cable housing just a little longer seemed to help ease the loop.

I also had to redo the guide and tension pulleys. They appear identical from the side but the teeth are slightly different, one set squared off, the other slightly tapered. I probably inadvertently swapped the two last year during disassembled cleaning.
canklecat is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 03:30 AM
  #11  
Depaso
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I modified the standard Suntour guide pulley with a precision screwdriver, lowering the channel where the washers rest, until getting enaugh clearance.
Depaso is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 06:09 AM
  #12  
smontanaro 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 3,072

Bikes: many

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Somewhere buried in BF history I probably have a thread about my experience with SunTour Accushift. As I recall, I used Accushift dt shifters, a SunTour Vx tear derailleur, and a SunTour freewheel whose model I no longer recall. Worked well enough for my needs. I did no math, so couldn't tell you 1.67 from 1.8, or even come spacing.

I've recently put a 7sp SunTour 4-notch freewheel aside for my Griffon. Again, don't recall the model of the to of my head. The spacing isn't uniform though. I believe that was a feature of the Accushift system.
smontanaro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 09:27 AM
  #13  
crank_addict
Senior Member
 
crank_addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,463
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 713 Post(s)
Currently running a variety of Suntour equipped bikes, budget versions to their top end offerings, but only one is Accushift. Its the bottom tiered offering Edge 4050 on a Zunow. Sadly it was the beginning of the end for Suntour of Osaka.

I specifically wanted to experience this group because back then it was heavily slighted by the shops and trickled down to 'their' customers.

Too bad they didn't pay attention in the shop clinics or were either too cheap in not attending, too busy short on staff, or thought they knew everything.

The Accushift systems work brilliant, long as you don't mix brands and use the proper freewheel. If one has a worn freewheel, a Sachs Aris LY-×× with its proper match spacing and bonus tooth profile work excellent.

Anyways, I dig the lowly Blaze. Its my little snub to all those who think nothing but Shimano or Campy. Its special when one looks at the Zunow and then the full Edge groupset. Of note, that lowly group actually offered a front derailleur for 'braze mount'. That's a sign it was intended for higher tier bikes. I had to source that component from Europe. Lol
crank_addict is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 05:24 PM
  #14  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,625

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2245 Post(s)
Originally Posted by crank_addict View Post
...The Accushift systems work brilliant, long as you don't mix brands and use the proper freewheel.
Yup, which Suntour confirmed in that user manual I linked to above. They describe it quite frankly as picky about components and adjustments. Everything from dropout and hanger spacing to freewheels, chains, cables and cable housing, all influence Accushift indexing performance.

When I wanted a 7-speed freewheel with a big larger cog than the original Suntour 13-24, I had to try two or three SunRace and Shimano freewheels to find one that worked well with Accushift -- the 14-28 SunRace. The 13-25 SunRace didn't work, mostly because of alignment wobble in the smallest two cogs. SunRace seems to have lax quality control, but the good ones are good and a great value.

Accushift is also very picky about chains, which Suntour also states in the manual. I've tried at least 4, possibly as many as 6 different chains to find one that works well with index shifting -- the KMC Z51.

Interestingly, the specially formed Z-Bridge side plates in the KMC Z51 and Z72 hindered use in friction mode with some, not all, freewheels -- again, acknowledged by Suntour.

And the GPX Accushift lever tends to creep, especially under heavy pressure such as standing to climb or mashing hard in sprints seated or standing. I never could get it adjusted to my liking. If I simply cranked down on the tension knob, it ruined the tactile feel. If I adjusted the tension to where I was satisfied with the tactile feedback, it creeped and ghost shifted. It lacks any clickstops or device to minimize creep and enhance tactile feedback -- even my cheap $10 SunRace SLM10 thumbies have been tactile feedback for smooth and repeatable friction shifting. Ditto the Shimano bar end shifters. And the GPX Accushift module is locked with a circlip lock ring and not intended to be user serviceable. It could be opened to service, but I don't see the point. I can't retrofit microclicks. If the washers are plastic they aren't suitable for using oil or grease to tweak the tactile feedback. It is what it is -- primarily an index shifting system for two types of freewheels, with a kludge friction mode tossed in because... just because.

This was a huge PITA last week when I tried to improve my time on a favorite nearby 6-mile time trial route. There are a couple of spots with rough pavement leading into short, steep climbs. And a couple of fast turns with ripply pavement. Between the two I jammed my knee when the unreliable friction shifting ghost shifted when I stood to sprint uphill. And I nearly lost control on a fast ripply turn when I tried to trim the shifter, with only one hand on the bar. That was more excitement than I needed. I did get my second best time on that route, but it was a full minute behind my best time, which I got last spring with the bike in index mode and no worries about fidgety friction shifting.


But I'm satisfied with it now. Just a wee bit of chain clatter in some cogs. I can tweak the barrel adjuster to move the clatter from one cog to another but can't dial it out completely. If I could redo the entire bike I might get it perfectly aligned. But right now I can only hear the slight clatter on the indoor trainer. Outdoors it's not audible. Good enough.
canklecat is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 05:54 PM
  #15  
crank_addict
Senior Member
 
crank_addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,463
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 713 Post(s)
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post

Accushift is also very picky about chains, which Suntour also states in the manual. I've tried at least 4, possibly as many as 6 different chains to find one that works well with index shifting -- the KMC Z51.

Interestingly, the specially formed Z-Bridge side plates in the KMC Z51 and Z72 hindered use in friction mode with some, not all, freewheels -- again, acknowledged by Suntour.

And the GPX Accushift lever tends to creep, especially under heavy pressure such as standing to climb or mashing hard in sprints seated or standing. .
As for ghost shifting or constant falling out of adjustment, possibly you're riding a flexy frame requiring a modified cadence and style of riding.

Its not talked of much but admittedly, operating our old vinti steeds takes a bit of finess and more involvement vs modern.

I could rip on how bad some of my old classics are but the reality is.... they're not bad, only requiring my respect, understanding limits, capabilities of the specific frame.

And when things start getting worn, the problem amplifies.

---
Chain and freewheel replacements

From my experience with Accushift Blaze, Edge and GPX my choice are Sachs Maillard LY92 freewheel and the old reliable Sedisport chains. Heavy, yes. Consistent good quality, yes. Cheaply found on eBay vs. nutty demands for Suntour, ✔
crank_addict is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 06:05 PM
  #16  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,651
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
I thought this thread was about Suntour indexing versus Shimano. Suntour developed Accushift and Accushift Plus in the mid 80s in response to SIS.

There've been several older Suntour derailleurs mentioned that although decent enough, were never index compatible, including VX, Blue line, Sprint, Cyclone etc.

Only Suntour derailleurs after say 1985 should be considered capable of indexing with Accushift. And then they have to be matched shifter to derailleur to cogset.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 06:32 PM
  #17  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 917

Bikes: '04 Felt SR91, '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Puch Bergmeister

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 244 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I thought this thread was about Suntour indexing versus Shimano. Suntour developed Accushift and Accushift Plus in the mid 80s in response to SIS.

There've been several older Suntour derailleurs mentioned that although decent enough, were never index compatible, including VX, Blue line, Sprint, Cyclone etc.

Only Suntour derailleurs after say 1985 should be considered capable of indexing with Accushift. And then they have to be matched shifter to derailleur to cogset.
Well, the OP explicitly asked about using older non-index derailleurs and mixing brands, so I think the thread is on the right course. I for one am tempted to try some 7-speed Shimano index shifters from the parts bin with my 1st gen Cyclone just to see if it works, since others above say they've had it work fine. I never would have guessed nor bothered to try otherwise.
noobinsf is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 07:56 PM
  #18  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,625

Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2245 Post(s)
Originally Posted by crank_addict View Post
As for ghost shifting or constant falling out of adjustment, possibly you're riding a flexy frame requiring a modified cadence and style of riding.

Its not talked of much but admittedly, operating our old vinti steeds takes a bit of finess and more involvement vs modern.

I could rip on how bad some of my old classics are but the reality is.... they're not bad, only requiring my respect, understanding limits, capabilities of the specific frame.

And when things start getting worn, the problem amplifies.

---
Chain and freewheel replacements

From my experience with Accushift Blaze, Edge and GPX my choice are Sachs Maillard LY92 freewheel and the old reliable Sedisport chains. Heavy, yes. Consistent good quality, yes. Cheaply found on eBay vs. nutty demands for Suntour, ✔
Thank you! You're among the very few people who've acknowledged that flex in some steel frames can affect operation. Many fans of classic bikes don't acknowledge this or haven't personally experienced it. If I'm recalling correctly Suntour mentions this in the manual I linked to (old PDF of scans, not text searchable or I'd confirm it right now).

I don't consider myself a strong climber or sprinter but I can manage a pretty hefty effort for 30-60 seconds standing, or seated while grinding the biggest gear I can manage at 90 rpm or faster. At around 160 lbs (a little lighter now) I'm just heavy enough to make that frame noodly under heavy effort. Whether on the trainer or outdoors on my favorite roller coaster routes, I can see the bottom bracket flexing. There's no way this won't cause ghost shifting on the rear and occasional chain drops when I get too hasty with front derailleur shifts. That's the advantage to either indexed shifting or friction shifters with those microclick doodads -- both help restrain against lever creep and ghost shifting.

And you're right about modifying my approach -- even standing I have to choose just the right gear and not rock and roll side to side with every pedal stroke. If I concentrate and pedal straight downward the flex is manageable with less lever creep and ghost shifting.

Since I have index shifting working okay now it's moot. Just took a while to find compatible components and get everything adjusted right.

But test riding a Specialized Tarmac over the summer clinched it for me. That carbon fiber frame was so rigid nothing moved and no energy was wasted. I didn't ride it long enough to check overall comfort, but it was incredibly efficient on climbs -- almost felt like the bike was doing half the work. A light, stiff carbon bike would be the single easiest thing I could do to improve my climbing. And with 700x28 tires with appropriate pressure, it felt pretty comfortable too on chipseal. But I can't justify a Tarmac on my budget.
canklecat is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-18, 08:33 PM
  #19  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,651
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
I for one am tempted to try some 7-speed Shimano index shifters from the parts bin with my 1st gen Cyclone just to see if it works, since others above say they've had it work fine. I never would have guessed nor bothered to try otherwise.
Don’t waste your time with this combo. Just by accident, 7-speed SIS shifters mated with an old Cyclone rear derailluer may sort of work on a 6-speed freewheel, but not any kind of 7-speed unit.

Old rear derailleurs had very high actuation ratios, for Cyclone I'd guess 2:1. Isn't even close to Shimano spec.

if someone else is saying that they’ve got this to 'work', I'd lump them in with a pal of mine who was complaining about how his $2,500 road bike was shifting fine, but was "hard to pedal". Turns out that due to a slipped rear derailluer cable, he could only access 3 of the smallest cogs on a 10-speed cassette. Yep, it was working just fine...
Dave Mayer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-18, 11:52 AM
  #20  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 6,032

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Don’t waste your time with this combo. Just by accident, 7-speed SIS shifters mated with an old Cyclone rear derailluer may sort of work on a 6-speed freewheel, but not any kind of 7-speed unit.

Old rear derailleurs had very high actuation ratios, for Cyclone I'd guess 2:1. Isn't even close to Shimano spec.

if someone else is saying that they’ve got this to 'work', I'd lump them in with a pal of mine who was complaining about how his $2,500 road bike was shifting fine, but was "hard to pedal". Turns out that due to a slipped rear derailluer cable, he could only access 3 of the smallest cogs on a 10-speed cassette. Yep, it was working just fine...
It never ceases to amaze me how far out of proper shifting that some will call "good". Yet some of these riders are used to finessing good shifting out of the most balky setups. Shifting to smaller cogs has to happen of it's own accord, so the cable adjustment prioritizes such shifts, leaving the rider to deal with achieving quick shifts to larger cogs.

Addressing the shifter oiling issue, there aren't any old shifters (with or without plastic washers) that won't benefit (even long-term) from plain old motor oil. The oil does not harm such plastics. I've rebuilt hundreds of old bikes, and my old TriFlo bottle (full of 10w30) makes all shifters work great, yes even Accushift, Synchro, SIS and all manner of friction levers!
Doing buy/sell flips, my servicing begins with the application of said oil to all of the bike's threaded fasteners, pivots and shift lever internals (accessed by loosening the thumb screw in most cases).

Bikes that suffer auto-shifting from their largest cog should first have their lo-limit adjustment revisited and possibly backed off. This has been an issue even with later Ergolever setups, where cable tension alone can force a shift to a smaller cog or chainring (unlike with Shimano's STI levers, which secure each shift detent with a ratchet pawl).

Accushift can work very well, and responds very well to the use of modern chain that is perhaps one increment narrower than was spec'd at the time the parts were sold.
I prefer using Shimano 9s chain with Accu-7, and any 8s chain with the original 6s Accushift. The narrower chain width takes account of the generous "overshift" freeplay built into the indexing mechanism (intended to assist shifting with the relatively primitive chains and cogs of the day).

More on-topic, I've used a 1970's Tourney rear derailer with Accu-7 levers, and found that it indexed a standard 6s cogset well.

I knew riders who used older Dura-Ace SIS rear derailers with Accu-7 levers and it seemed to work well for them out on the road.

I spent considerable time perfecting Shimano cassette cog spacing for use with Accu-7 Command shifters, and recommend Shimano 9s chain for such setups to achieve modern shifting performance.
dddd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-18, 04:51 PM
  #21  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,651
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
It never ceases to amaze me how far out of proper shifting that some will call "good".

I knew riders who used older Dura-Ace SIS rear derailers with Accu-7 levers and it seemed to work well for them out on the road.
Excellent, substantive post. You know your stuff.

I once measured the cable pull of 7 and 8-speed Dura-Ace and found it close to 7/8 speed Suntour Accushift. A few years back, I was preparing a bike for sale to a pal, which included the first generation (excellent) Dura-Ace STI shifters. Dura-Ace 7400 rear derailleurs were not exactly long cage, and could barely handle a 26 tooth cog. But this was racing kit, and we were all lighter and younger in 1984.

So in order to manage a 30-tooth rear cog, I substituted a Suntour XC-Pro rear derailleur- mid-cage. Worked perfectly. This leads me to believe that the actuation ratio and cable pull of early Dura-Ace STI matched early Suntour indexing efforts.

Since Shimano came up with STI first, I can only assume that Suntour duplicated the Shimano derailleur geometry, but with generally longer derailleur cages. Two years later, Shimano came up with Shimano 600, and a range of less expensive kit, and changed the cable pull and actuation ratios. As far as indexing, Shimano and Suntour were now incompatible. I don't if Shimano did this deliberately to throw a wrench into Suntour's plans, but the longer cable pull requirement generally resulted in less fussy, more robust shifting.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-18, 09:31 PM
  #22  
The Golden Boy 
Extraordinary Magnitude
 
The Golden Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 10,516

Bikes: 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1342 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Excellent, substantive post. You know your stuff.

I once measured the cable pull of 7 and 8-speed Dura-Ace and found it close to 7/8 speed Suntour Accushift. A few years back, I was preparing a bike for sale to a pal, which included the first generation (excellent) Dura-Ace STI shifters. Dura-Ace 7400 rear derailleurs were not exactly long cage, and could barely handle a 26 tooth cog. But this was racing kit, and we were all lighter and younger in 1984.

So in order to manage a 30-tooth rear cog, I substituted a Suntour XC-Pro rear derailleur- mid-cage. Worked perfectly. This leads me to believe that the actuation ratio and cable pull of early Dura-Ace STI matched early Suntour indexing efforts.

Since Shimano came up with STI first, I can only assume that Suntour duplicated the Shimano derailleur geometry, but with generally longer derailleur cages. Two years later, Shimano came up with Shimano 600, and a range of less expensive kit, and changed the cable pull and actuation ratios. As far as indexing, Shimano and Suntour were now incompatible. I don't if Shimano did this deliberately to throw a wrench into Suntour's plans, but the longer cable pull requirement generally resulted in less fussy, more robust shifting.
I'm not sure about a lot of that- But the actuation rate on Accushift derailleurs was *close enough* to work with the 7400 series DA shifter pull to work fluidly on normal spaced 6 speed freewheels. Of course the spacing on the cassette/freewheel changed as the cog number went up!

For the most part- Use Accushift shifters with Accushift derailleurs with Accushift freewheels/cassettes and use modern cable and modern chains and it'll work gorgeous.

Use 6 speed Accushift shifters and derailleurs with 6 speed SIS freewheels/cassette (or even a 5 speed freewheel) and it works perfectly.

Combining any other conflagration of Accushift/SIS/DA is asking for trouble. As is trying to combine @ Accushift with regular Accushift.

If you want to talk about building a cassette with spacing to work with Accushift- refer to this thread: Centurion Pro Tour 15 and The Hawk
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*

“You gotta grab life by the lips and yank as hard as you can.”

"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.

Last edited by The Golden Boy; 12-09-18 at 09:36 PM.
The Golden Boy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-18, 01:50 PM
  #23  
kunsunoke 
spondylitis.org
 
kunsunoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fleetwood, PA, USA
Posts: 820

Bikes: '90 Bridgestone MB-1; '85 Trek 600; '01 Cinelli Supercorsa; '89 Bridgestone RADAC 3100; '87 Tommasini Super Prestige; '13 Lynskey R2300; '84 Serotta Nova Special

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
1 Sachs Centara rear derailleur Derailleur is late 1990s vintage; should be Shimano SIS compatible up to 10-speeds. Only exception is anything from Dura Ace 7400-series.

2 Suntour mountech rear der Not SIS compatible, due to lack of dual pivots in the RD. Will work with any friction shifter setup and should match up well with the XC-Pro power shifters.

3 Suntour superb pro rear der Shimano SIS compatible (DA 7400 excepted) in 6-speed through 8-speed if it's this version - VeloBase.com - Component: SunTour Superbe Pro

4 Suntour accushift plus bar end shifter Shimano SIS compatible (DA 7400 excepted); 6-speed or 7-speed

5 Suntour stem mount power shifter Friction shifter; will work with Shimano SIS parts but in friction mode only.

6 Suntour XC pro accushift plus thumb shifter rear (multi mountain?) Shimano SIS compatible (DA 7400 excepted) in 6-speed or 7-speed; best performance will be 7-spd to 7-spd.

7 Suntour XC Pro power control thumb shifter front (friction?) Friction shifter; will work with Shimano SIS parts but in friction mode only.

Can you use a older rear derailleur like a Suntour V GT or Cyclone with an indexing shifter? Qualified yes; however, it works badly, with horrible reliability in holding and maintaining shifts. The indexing shifter would have to be a lever type with friction option, and you will want to leave it in friction mode.

Can you use an older Suntour Freewheel like a Perfect 5 or 6 speed with an indexing system Qualified yes; works best with Suntour Accushift indexing. Suntour freewheels are not ramped, which means a small amount of overshift is required of the index shifter. Shimano shifters without ramped freewheel or cassette cogs are not as reliable. Shift quality guide:
BEST - Shimano SIS HG cassette or freewheel or Suntour PowerFlo cassette or freewheel with ramps; Shimano SIS shifters; Suntour Accushift with Shimano SIS HG or Suntour PowerFlo cassette or freewheel, with slight drop-off in shift quality for regular (non-ramped) Suntour rear cogs.


Can you use a shimano hyperglide 5 or 6 speed with a Suntour indexing shifter .Yes, up to 7-speed (DA 7400 excepted). It will not perform as well as a complete SIS system, though.
Combinations that should work:
Non DA 7400 Shimano SIS RD / Shimano HG or Suntour PowerFlo cassette or freewheel / Suntour Accushift shifters
Suntour Accushift-capable RD with dual pivots / Shimano HG or Suntour PowerFlo cassette or freewheel / Suntour Accushift shifters
Suntour Accushift-capable RD with dual pivots / Shimano HG or Suntour PowerFlo cassette or freewheel / Shimano SIS shifters
(non DA 7400)

Last edited by kunsunoke; 12-10-18 at 01:55 PM.
kunsunoke is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service