What difference does width of rims make?
 

​​​​​​For example take the same tire and put it on two different rims say a 19 mm inside versus a 22 mm inside what difference does it make in the height of the tire or the width.


Edit to add, what about going even wider say 25 or 27mm?

Asking this to determine rim and tire fit in a close fit situation. I like a wider tire and wondering if a wider rim will help shorten a tire a bit to allow fit near the chain stay bridge.

I suspect, like on motorcycles, the same tire would end up lower profile with a wider rim. Such can actually badly effect handling as I experienced in the past on my motorcycle, as tire size/aspect ratio is matched carefully by manufacturers to rim size for the best handling. Not really sure if the same applies to the much smaller section bike tires and rims.....

According to some crude math, not much.
You're basically adding/removing 3 mm from the cross-section circumference of the tire, which adds/removes about 1 mm to the cross-section diameter. So that'd be 0.5 mm width on each side and 1 mm height.

Main difference I notice is in handling on tricky stuff on my road bike -- fast curves, especially on ripply and rough pavement. In ordinary conditions puttering around town, probably wouldn't notice much difference. Fat tires on skinny rims leave too much unsupported shoulder. Whether you notice depends on how and where you ride.

Example where it didn't make a huge difference...

My favorite hybrid tire is the Continental Speed Ride. Comes in one size, nominally 700x42, actually measures 700x38 on most rims, confirmed by other Speed Ride users. Great, versatile tires on my nothing-special Araya 622x19 single wall rims, fast on good pavement, comfy and stable on rough and ripply pavement, excellent on any reasonably good gravel or dirt as long as it's not slippery slimy stuff that needs aggressive tread.

Alas, those rims were borked by a car last spring. A friend gave me a nice set of Alex double wall 622x14 rims. Lots of overlap with the Speed Rides. Felt just a wee bit squirmy on fast curves but never out of control. I just wasn't confident in having that much shoulder flexing unsupported over relatively skinny rims, especially when I dropped the pressure to 30-45 psi for gravel. Speed Rides are pretty supple with thin sidewalls for tires with specs that seem unremarkable on paper. I just wasn't comfortable pushing 'em that hard.

Switched to 700x32 Conti Sport Contact II, a better fit for the 622x14 rims and, even better, now fit an old set of SKS Bluemels I already had in the closet. While not an ideal match of tire/rim width, it's fine for my hybrid bike 12 mph loafcycling. They feel stable on fast downhill curves.

So when I resume using the Speed Rides I'll get some 622x19 rims, maybe even a touch wider for gravel. They're so good I just don't see the point of paying more for pricy CX or gravel tires.

Better example, where tires too wide for rims definitely felt squirmy...

My Centurion Ironman came with original Araya CTL-370 rims, very narrow and lightweight as clincher rims of that era go. Also 622x14 inner width. That Ironman was originally spec'd with something like 700x19 clinchers rather than tubulars, probably not great riding or handling but it was an affordable but well made time trial bike, not a crit or GC bike. I haven't seen any 700x20 tires in a couple of years and the last batches of 700x18-20 tires Nashbar had a year or so ago were unsold old stock. The guy I bought my Ironman from fit it with new 700x23 Vittoria Zaffiros, decent but nothing special tires. After a few months I switched to 700x23 Schwalbe One V-Guards, outstanding tires. That seemed to be the sweet spot for those rims. Also seems to cushion the rims well enough they stay true longer, a big problem with my favorite fast rural routes where some unavoidable batches of bad pavement can whack wheels pretty hard at 20-30 mph.

Alas, construction debris along my favorite rural route cut my Schwalbes like a jealous Texas girlfriend. I decided to try 700x25 Conti Ultra Sport II. Comfy but the handling wasn't great on fast curves. It felt squirrely, and a bit spooky on ripply curves. No amount of tweaking the pressure from 80-120 psi made it feel right for me (I weigh about 160, a bit less now). I just felt like the front 700x25 tire was slopping over the rim unsupported. It didn't inspire confidence. Last time I had that sensation was with motorcycles and cars with tires too wide for the rims, so it was a familiar feeling.

I switched back to 700x23 Schwalbe on the front (I had one good tire left) and kept the 700x25 Conti on the back. Perfect combo, comfy in the back on rough roads, restored the nimble and stable handling on front. Both the Schwalbe One and Conti US2 are slicks, both suitable for serious training and modest racing, so I'd expect the experience to translate to any comparable tire when comparing 700x23 with 700x25 on 622x14 rims.

Which is one way of saying, if you don't engage in on-the-edge riding you probably won't see much difference, up to a point. The fallback answer used to be the tire/rim-width charts on places like Sheldon Brown (Harris Cyclery). Those charts showed a range of tire widths acceptable for any given rim. To stay in the center of the range you might pair a skinny tire to a skinny rim but you didn't have to.

Some years ago when I asked a question about rims in C&V it was presented to me that the "new trend" was to go with either wider tires on skinny rims or skinny tires on wider rims. I really can't remember which but I believe I remember I think I recall that it was skinny tires on wider rims, except that it might have been the other way around. I'd say it was the former, except there was and still is an ongoing argument that you should use wider tires too, which brings us to wider ties on wider rims. Which doesn't answer your question.

One thing we do know for certain is wider rims are heavier. Wider tires too. Depending on the riding conditions you can feel the difference, but that may not be the most important thing for your conditions. Which boils down to it doesn't make a lot of difference until you get way off the center of the charts.

I choose my rim width according to my desired tire size, using Sheldon Brown's chart as a rough guide. Only one of my road bikes, the Bianchi, limits me to 26mm wide tires (actual, not callout, size -- Continental 700Cx28 do fit), and I prefer to go somewhat wider on all of the others.

I don't even think about rim widths, honestly.

Most of my clincher wheels have 20mm wide rims with 23mm and 25mm tires. I have wider Super Champion Mod 58 22mm rims on 5 bikes. I run 28mm, 32mm tires on 4 of them and 41mm tires on my rough stuff bike.

Works for me.

verktyg :50:

So here is the operative question: Does that 20mm mean outer or inner width? Rim manufacturers' charts usually list both. When someone quotes one number without saying which it is, I don't know which it is.

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths." - Steven Wright

(You are posting this in the Classic & Vintage section, do you mean outside width of the rim? A 19mm or 22mm inside width would be very unusual for vintage rims, I think. They often are quite narrow.)

See this profile chart from HED wheels. The outer red line is a 25mm tire on a 20.5mm inside width rim. The white line is the same tire on a 13.6mm inside width rim.
The wider rims are essentially increasing the size of the circle. It's surprising to me that the profiles don't flatten out as the rim widens.

( On a side note, that small increase in the tire size, just a few mm, is enough to increase the air volume quite a bit. GP4000S size 25 measure 29mm on my 20.5 ID rims. That's a 30% increase in the cross section area over the nominal 25mm diameter. )

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc571f1134.jpg

This is what I am thinking about
I am looking to build some wheels for a couple of bikes i have and want a fairly wide tire at least 28 for my Zunow build and was wondering if the rim width makes a difference and thwese are the rims I am looking at the sun line including the cr18, Rhyno lite and the Rhyno lite XL.
The image in the above post is what I am looking for. it is showing increased size in the height with the wider rim
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2abd9161ff.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...78b7762150.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e3842b0c5d.jpg
This is what I am thinking about
I am looking to build some wheels for a couple of bikes i have and want a fairly wide tire at least 28 for my Zunow build and was wondering if the rim width makes a difference and thwese are the rims I am looking at the sun line including the cr18, Rhyno lite and the Rhyno lite XL.

Rim Widths
 

I always assume the outer width.

Sewup rims ranged from ~19mm to ~22mm wide. Mavic introduced their "narrow" 20mm wide Modular E clincher rims in 1975. They were a joint collaboration with Michelin to work with their then new Elan tires (thus the "E" in Module E).

The idea was to provide clincher tires with performance similar to sewups. Also, in size 700c they could be swapped with sewups for training without having to adjust the brakes.

The original 700c Elan tires were 19mm wide while the 27" version were 3/4" - essentially the same width.

In early 1976 Rigida introduced their 1320 rims to compete against the Module E rims. They were 20mm wide on the outside and 13mm on the inside (there was also a 1319 version which I assume was 19mm wide???). They also made a wider 1622 rims which were 22mm outside and 16mm inside.

Prior to the Module E, Rigida 1320 and Super Champion Gentleman 20mm wide rims, most 27" and 700c alloy clincher rims ranged from 22mm to ~25mm wide. Except for Rigida, the inside width was never mentioned in the literature back then.

verktyg :50:

28mm tires would be the equivalent of 1-1/8", not especially wide compared to the old days when a stock tire on an inexpensive bike like my UO-8 would have been 1-1/4". I would think any of those rims would do, not necessarily requiring the wide one. You probably won't notice the difference between the 23mm CR-18 and the 27mm Rhyno Lite. (Notice how the CR-18 is named for its inner width.) I tend to build with narrower rims, have used the Sun M13-II (13mm inner width) on several wheels sets and been really happy with them. So I'd expect the CR-18 to be just fine for you. Or that Rhyno Lite thingy.

Jan Heine has some related wisdom on the subject of rims

Not specifically on width but informative

No science to back my theory but here goes-
Old school

Narrow rims for narrow rubber.
Wide rims for blubber rubber.

Short wall box for least material equate lighter for climbing. Because of the lower speed, less emphasis on aero. Blast from the past fast crowd rim example - Fiamme yellow Ergal / tubular speaking

Taller section for speed -advantage aero. Example Araya Aero 1 to 4 whatever.

Thank goodness for those at Sun recognizing our fondness of old lightweights and giving us the CR-18.

The CR18 rim will suit you very well. It's an excellent rim, and it will handle 28mm tires great. The only thing you may want to consider is that it's on the heavy side, but it's not awful, and I'm guessing not too heavy for you. And you probably won't care it's not very aerodynamic, either. I've built a few wheels with the CR18, and it's better than the rims I built up back in the 80s. Rim making has advanced a fair bit.

Silly little millimeter
 

All the fretting over 20mm vs. 23mm wide rims seems a bit much when were talking about less than 1/8" of an inch in width (1/8" = .125" = 3.18mm). :foo:

As I mentioned above, 20mm wide 700c clincher rims came out in 1975 to interchange with sewup wheels without having to adjust the brakes. Changing from 27" wheels with 23mm-26mm wide rims to 700c sewups required relocating the brake pad position as well as adjusting the cable length.

That was one of the impetuses that brought about the switch from 27" to 700c clinchers among sporting cyclists in the US market; probably the UK too.

Common sense tells me to ride wider tires on rough pavement and off road so slightly wider rims make sense.

This evening I was looking at the tires on 8 of my favorite bikes hanging in the bat cave. They all have 20mm wide 700c Mavic MA2 or Open Pro clincher rims with 23mm to 25mm tires.

The tires are either 700c x 25mm Paselas or 700c x 23mm Continental Grand Prix. The Paselas measure 25mm wide by 25mm high while the Contis are 23mm wide and 24mm high.

The difference in the ride and handling has more to do with the tire design than the 1-2mm size difference. The Paselas have a slightly smoother ride while the Contis feel more sporty??? Subjective results over the past 10 years.

Guesstimate from experience, it's probably easier to mount wider tires on wider rims. I've had to go from A2 size tubes to A1 to mount some wide tires on narrower rims.

verktyg :50:

Now that's my kind of paragraph! :lol:

To say nothing of wide ties with narrow lapels and vice versa.

I keep it simple. All my wheels are Velocity Aero or Mavic, either Open Pro or Open Sport. All close to 19mm inside. (I haven't measured but I do very little messing with brakes when I swap wheels. The Open Sports are the widest. the other two very close to each other. I run tires from 23c (well I used to, don't any more but that is because wider tires have gotten better and I have aged and no longer go fast) to 38c. All work just fine. Yes, low pressure with the 38s get squirmy, esp on pavement, but it works.

I did a ride on one of my bikes that included both 60 miles of pavement and 30 of gravel with lots of steep up and down on the "grave"; actually rocks of 1.5-2". Set the bike up with Paselas, 38c in front and 32c in back. (If I ran a wider rim, I would have had to drop the rear tire size. It was absolutely maxed out.) The bike rode just fine with good road pressures for the opening 35 miles of pavement. Dropped the pressure a lot for the gnarly miles of descent (a lot of it at ~18%). Handling was sweet! I was diving into blind turns and just planting the front tire in the deep "gravel" of the tire track. Bike rode those curves like it was on rails. Fun! Now when I got back to the pavement for the 10 miles to the Oregon coast and our meetup point. the bike felt awful. I finally pulled over and pumped up the tires. Much,much better!

Except for those few pavement miles riding tires that were near flat, I felt everything about the bike was, all day, right on. Especially on that wild descent that had me in close to nightmares the nights before.

Ben

OP should stick with CR-18 and prefer a tire that mounts true to size (Vittoria) rather than one that mounts large (Conti). And it is never a good idea to use all of the available clearance. Tires stretch and some stretch a lot. Tires pick up debris. Spokes break. Clearance is a good thing.

Rim width makes a difference. My experience. I just never used narrow tires. Back when I started Criterium Setas were 25mm wide and I just never saw a reason to go narrower. Narrow rims became necessary when most were gulled into using 18 and 19mm tires. Lots of 3/4" tires were mounted on Weinmann Alesas and similar wide rims back in late 70s. It didn't work at all. Lots of crashes. Unfortunately those preposterous skinny tires still have loyalists, including many of those who crashed. The narrow rims do work better than the tires. In 80s and early 90s when tubulars were very high priced my bikes mostly rolled on Specialized Turbo/S 700x32, which were lousy tires but what you could get. On old Super Champion #58 rims (22mm outside, 16mm inside) they measured 26mm. When inventory of Super Champ ran out and there was no ebay and no swap meet it was required to use Mavic rims, which mounted the "32mm" tire at 25mm. The narrow rim was a big downgrade. Same tires on narrow rim did not work nearly as well. (79pmooney in previous post mis-states outside dimension of popular Mavic rims as inside dimension). But you do what you have to do to ride. With a narrow rim and a 28mm tire you can do anything a road bike will do without a problem. Sprint at 40mph, descend at 50-60mph and the tires work fine. Then wider rims became available and it was immediately apparent that old memory was correct and same 28mm tire worked enormously better on a 23mm rim than it did on a 19 rim.

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Mavic used to caution against using wider than 28mm tires on Open Pro rims. My experience is that 32mm tires do squirm a bit, though you might never notice if riding slow. 35mm tires on a narrow rim will squirm and flop horribly. Yes, it is possible to ride that way. In olden days of MTB what was sold as mountain rims were just road rim extrusions rolled down to 559. We all rode them and did extreme stunts on them. But it is sure a lot better with wide rims. Keith Bontrager made his bones by buying deadstock 40hole Super Champion 700C rims, cutting out 4 holes and 62-1/2mm of rim, re-hooping them as 36hole 559 rims. This was an enormous amount of trouble to go to to get 3mm of rim width. He sold as many as he could make and had a waiting list. Yes, it makes a difference.

Going too far the other direction doesn't work either. As previously stated, 19mm tires did not work on early 70s rims 24-26mm wide. If you go to the races, or dredge through posts here on the 33 forum, you'll see racers using wide gravel carbon rims with skinny race tires. Because for some reason it is possible to fabricate carbon rims that are lighter at 30mm wide than at road width. And lighter is better and wide rims are fashionable and racers will always push it to the limit. What happens when you mount a 700x25 Conti GP4000 on an Enve G23 rim is the shoulder of the tire wears fast. Near either edge of the tread strip they wear down to a stripe of cord in just one race. And I mean a 20 mile cat 3-4 criterium. They just figure it's racing and mount new tires every race. They will do that a long time before figuring it out. OP would probably get away with mounting a 28 on a Rhyno Lite, a Rhyno XL could be bad. But very hard to see why the experiment would be worthwhile. Since the bike is a Zunow, I'd spend for a Pacenti Brevet or H+Son TB14. And probably use a vittoria Corsa G in 700x25 that would mount up at 27mm. If there were still 4 or 5mm of clearance all around.