Whats so special about Italian bikes?
#51
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,150
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 422 Times
in
282 Posts
If you look carefully you can buy a pristine vintage Japanese Miyata or Centurion for for $200-$300 dollars but yet I see these classic Italian bikes selling for thousands of dollars. Are they really that much better or is it a prestige deal having more to do with snob appeal owning a certain brand or something thats more of a collector item?
Those are special and often command the same as those upper tier Italian classics. But I do see where one may not give a hoot and its mostly about the off the rack nice Japanese racer.
They are bargains. Install a nice lightweight wheelset (consider tubulars) and the 'WOW' factor really kicks in. Nice quality, some easily exceeding Italian brands.
I'm intentionally leaving comments out of the US boutique makers, but above all feel they offered the finest in quality.
Personally, I find fun and enjoyment out of all of them. (I can rip on French quality yet really like the all business racer. Peugeot pumped bikes out of their doors and the pros successfully raced stock production.) Japan ramped up in the 80s and rivaled the best of Italy and France.
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,457
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1629 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 814 Times
in
527 Posts
A beautiful derailleur but performance is marginal, compared to even their French counterparts.
Unfortunately, it was traits like that with their components that gave the Japanese companies the opportunity it to present themselves as a serious alternatives to the already established and then dominant Euro component makers.
Campy just sat on their laurels too long while most of the rest of the component world, moved on.....
#53
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,150
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 422 Times
in
282 Posts
And virtually no US made derailleur set. Paul and someone else tried a limited run of rear derailleurs during the MTB hay day. Those purportedly not quite good.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Normal, Illinois
Posts: 2,714
Bikes: Trek 600 ,1980Raleigh Competition G.S., 1986 Schwinn Passage, Facet Biotour 2000, Falcon San Remo 531,Schwinn Sierra, Sun Seeker tricycle recumbent,1985 Bianchi Squadra
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times
in
9 Posts
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ashland, VA
Posts: 4,420
Bikes: The keepers: 1958 Raleigh Lenton Grand Prix, 1968 Ranger, 1969 Magneet Sprint, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1973 Raleigh Tourist, 3 - 1986 Rossins, and a '77 PX-10 frame in process.
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 221 Post(s)
Liked 237 Times
in
129 Posts
And it's not just cars and bicycles. If anything, in motorcycles the difference is ever more extreme. It wasn't until the early '00's you could buy a Ducati that you didn't have to be able to work on yourself just to keep it running.
__________________
Syke
“No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”
H.L. Mencken, (1926)
Syke
“No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”
H.L. Mencken, (1926)
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1858 Post(s)
Liked 605 Times
in
402 Posts
I think it's all about Columbus Tubing frames. The only thing that Japan had that came close were Tange 1 frames. And, few mass produced bikes were ever made with it until the late 80's. Every Italian bike I ever rode always had Columbus Tubing frames. Only one in ten Japanese bikes I've ever rode had Tange 1 frames.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1858 Post(s)
Liked 605 Times
in
402 Posts
But very little, to no, snob value.
And it's not just cars and bicycles. If anything, in motorcycles the difference is ever more extreme. It wasn't until the early '00's you could buy a Ducati that you didn't have to be able to work on yourself just to keep it running.
And it's not just cars and bicycles. If anything, in motorcycles the difference is ever more extreme. It wasn't until the early '00's you could buy a Ducati that you didn't have to be able to work on yourself just to keep it running.
#58
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,829
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2287 Post(s)
Liked 2,028 Times
in
1,244 Posts
What a great shot. She looks like she owns that DeRosa.
Bellissimo!
Bellissimo!
#59
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,035
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,236 Times
in
653 Posts
The Answer
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
#60
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,937
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
But honestly, most technology from 40-50 years ago is primitive compared to anything contemporary. I can accept that, and tolerate those annoyances in small doses, for occasional rides.
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
#61
Banned.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,297
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,407 Times
in
908 Posts
I think it's all about Columbus Tubing frames. The only thing that Japan had that came close were Tange 1 frames. And, few mass produced bikes were ever made with it until the late 80's. Every Italian bike I ever rode always had Columbus Tubing frames. Only one in ten Japanese bikes I've ever rode had Tange 1 frames.
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 937
Bikes: I have a few
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times
in
104 Posts
Yes, the NR shifts, but very slowly, with a lot of over shift and trimming action required....
A beautiful derailleur but performance is marginal, compared to even their French counterparts.
Unfortunately, it was traits like that with their components that gave the Japanese companies the opportunity it to present themselves as a serious alternatives to the already established and then dominant Euro component makers.
Campy just sat on their laurels too long while most of the rest of the component world, moved on.....
A beautiful derailleur but performance is marginal, compared to even their French counterparts.
Unfortunately, it was traits like that with their components that gave the Japanese companies the opportunity it to present themselves as a serious alternatives to the already established and then dominant Euro component makers.
Campy just sat on their laurels too long while most of the rest of the component world, moved on.....
#64
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,931
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26245 Post(s)
Liked 10,229 Times
in
7,098 Posts
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,755
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3190 Post(s)
Liked 2,460 Times
in
1,489 Posts
I just have to get this off my chest. I have always thought a Campy NR RD resembles a marine invertebrate. It looks like a squid with those pointed inlays and tentacle like things going off the side. Really shiny, though. There, I said it. Don't be hating.
Last edited by seypat; 12-30-18 at 03:17 PM.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Seal Beach Ca. On the right , next to Long Beach
Posts: 1,825
Bikes: 86' Centurion Ironman
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 628 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times
in
175 Posts
Here is my EDR a 86' Centurion Ironman , made in Japan , designed in the USA . The saddle is Italian , Selle Supercorsa . The rims are French , Mavic .
@microcord cool video , thanks .
DSCF2463 by mark westi, on Flickr
@microcord cool video , thanks .
DSCF2463 by mark westi, on Flickr
#67
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
I hate these threads.
Bikes from a country aren’t all the same because they’re from a country. Bikes and brands are different in different eras. This question is meaningless, and insulting, intentional or not, to those of us who do like many Italian brands.
In short, most of these Japanese bikes are imitations of Italian designs. Often they’re well made, and typically larger production runs. Typically they’re budget alternatives. Comparisons of this country vs. this country are utterly meaningless, and quite silly.
A 200-300 Miyata/Centurion is rarely a racing machine, like the Italians you’re comparing them to. They are slacker geometry, usually more versatile, and likely more practical for many riders - but they are not the precision, agile racing machines a De Rosa is known as.
You can find top end Italian bikes from lesser known builders for far under 1k if you know what you’re doing.
No other bike, Japanese or Italian, rides as well for me as my Marnati.
It’s great that you like your 200-300 miyata...I’ve liked many myself. Why do you have to justify your bike by comparing them to something else?
Bikes from a country aren’t all the same because they’re from a country. Bikes and brands are different in different eras. This question is meaningless, and insulting, intentional or not, to those of us who do like many Italian brands.
In short, most of these Japanese bikes are imitations of Italian designs. Often they’re well made, and typically larger production runs. Typically they’re budget alternatives. Comparisons of this country vs. this country are utterly meaningless, and quite silly.
A 200-300 Miyata/Centurion is rarely a racing machine, like the Italians you’re comparing them to. They are slacker geometry, usually more versatile, and likely more practical for many riders - but they are not the precision, agile racing machines a De Rosa is known as.
You can find top end Italian bikes from lesser known builders for far under 1k if you know what you’re doing.
No other bike, Japanese or Italian, rides as well for me as my Marnati.
It’s great that you like your 200-300 miyata...I’ve liked many myself. Why do you have to justify your bike by comparing them to something else?
Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 12-30-18 at 03:21 PM.
#68
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,150
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 422 Times
in
282 Posts
Yes very correct. I have no idea why but there is still that appeal myself included. Then again I like early 70’s alphas as well. I do own bikes with suntour, hurret, shimano just not on any bike that was sold with campy. That being said if I am bringing an old bike to a modern fast group ride it Is one with 6 speed suntour.
Call me the sinner!!
>>>> Conclusion: Accushift index shifting works BRILLIANT <<<<
#69
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,937
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
Well, we went from bikes, i.e. frames, to gruppos. IMHO, one of the reasons Italian bikes ride so well is because of the Columbus tubing. I have three bikes with Reynolds 531 tubing, two of which are rideable. 531 compares favorably to Columbus SL. My "Japanese" Italian Bianchi Brava is made of Ishiwata tubing, comparable to Aelle I imagine, as it is heavier. It has a nice ride. I think the best mixed classic combo I've ridden was a Basso Gap (Columbus SL) with Shimano 600 components.
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
#70
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,931
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26245 Post(s)
Liked 10,229 Times
in
7,098 Posts
And it still won't handle much in the way of a largest rear cog. I can only get them to work well with about 25 teeth or less. But it was never designed or intended for use with larger rear cogs. Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that in here, FWIW. In the 80's, Bianchi sold the Giro one year with an SLX frame and all indexing Dura Ace. That's a nice setup. But it requires little skill in shifting, so if you're into friction shifting skills, it gets a little boring.
#71
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,937
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
'Cause it's fun to stir the pot?
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
#72
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,931
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26245 Post(s)
Liked 10,229 Times
in
7,098 Posts
Well, we went from bikes, i.e. frames, to gruppos. IMHO, one of the reasons Italian bikes ride so well is because of the Columbus tubing. I have three bikes with Reynolds 531 tubing, two of which are rideable. 531 compares favorably to Columbus SL. My "Japanese" Italian Bianchi Brava is made of Ishiwata tubing, comparable to Aelle I imagine, as it is heavier. It has a nice ride. I think the best mixed classic combo I've ridden was a Basso Gap (Columbus SL) with Shimano 600 components.
..Ishiwata made all levels of tubing, and I think they still do under a different name, but little of it leaves Japan now. Ishiwata 022 is pretty comparable to everyone else's good stuff from that period.
#73
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,931
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26245 Post(s)
Liked 10,229 Times
in
7,098 Posts
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18319 Post(s)
Liked 4,487 Times
in
3,337 Posts
The Italians made good solid racing bikes since back in the 1950's or 1960's.
Other brands like Peugeot and Raleigh made a few nice bikes, and quite a few cheap department store bikes. Schwinn also made a lot of junk, and a few nice bikes (which the top of the line Schwinns command as high of a price as many Italian bikes).
The Japanese did a good job copying the Italian classics.
Do you want an original, or a copy?
There will also be a supply and demand issue, especially in the USA. A limited number of vintage Italian bikes, and millions of later model Japanese copies.
Other brands like Peugeot and Raleigh made a few nice bikes, and quite a few cheap department store bikes. Schwinn also made a lot of junk, and a few nice bikes (which the top of the line Schwinns command as high of a price as many Italian bikes).
The Japanese did a good job copying the Italian classics.
Do you want an original, or a copy?
There will also be a supply and demand issue, especially in the USA. A limited number of vintage Italian bikes, and millions of later model Japanese copies.