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Whats so special about Italian bikes?

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Whats so special about Italian bikes?

Old 01-03-19, 04:17 PM
  #151  
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That is called "surface development"
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Old 01-03-19, 04:28 PM
  #152  
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What is so special about vintage Italian bikes?

The fact that they could get away with murder. My newest Eroica bike is a 1979 SOMEC, and in in lockstep fashion, the fine finishing and painting are atrocious. Head scratchingly (word?) bad. Rides great, but how much of that perception is mystique driven, and not objective? I will never know, and hope that remains so.
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Old 01-04-19, 03:12 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
I think it's all about the "curves".

I really have no idea who this lady is but as a small town Texas redneck all I can say is I am in love....
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Old 01-04-19, 02:14 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by TXsailor View Post
I really have no idea who this lady is but as a small town Texas redneck all I can say is I am in love....
I think that is Sophia Loren, in the 1950's.
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Old 01-04-19, 06:33 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by kunsunoke View Post
Frank Berto stated that NR shifted badly forever. He's right. It does.



Campagnolo and Shimano got their current dual-slant panto design from SunTour. Shimano adopted dual slant just after the patent expired in 1985, and added the dual sprung pivots - which really helped when SIS came a few years later. It took the threat of index shifting to get Campagnolo to switch away from simple parallelogram.



NR top with Rallye cage works about the same as NR and SR alone with a 13-21. It gets into the 13T cog about half the time you shift it. SunTour Superbe / Cyclone / Sprint just work, under load, with zero drama, in all gears.

Huret Duopar works great if you can keep it properly aligned.
So you have two complaints: Nobody listened to Frank Berto at the outset, and Campy was slow to adopt slant parallellogram?

I don't know when Frank started evaluating derailleurs and other gear for Bicycling! but Campy was out there in the pro racing world since about 1963 (my best guess). It held a place on most racing bicycles for (again my best guess) about 10 years. Did Frank say how bad it was at the outset of his reviews and comments?

There are a lot of reasons why a company might not release new products with the best technology as early as another company. For Campy I don't know what they are but I could imagine a complex set of problems adopting a new set of designs.

I don't think "why didn't Campy innovate?" is your real problem, since your rant sounds peeved about something. I don't see how Campy, good or bad, affects you in the least. I still don't see what point you are trying to make. If your message is "Campy stinks," that has been stated many times in many publications and forums. The only practical answer is "a lot of people like it and find it works well, and if you don't like it you shouldn't buy it. You'll end up sad."

But a lot of people including consumers have been satisfied riding their Campy-equipped bicycles.

Last edited by Road Fan; 01-04-19 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 01-04-19, 08:26 PM
  #156  
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I have to say this: I have never, ever had the kind of problems people here complain about with SR or NR rear derailleurs. Never. I maintain/adjust them periodically for optimal performance, and that's what I get. They are limited in absolute precision by design, but they work as advertised: quick and accurate shifting over a range of racing gears, that is to say, maximum of 1 or 2 tooth jumps.

DD
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Old 01-04-19, 08:36 PM
  #157  
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FWIW, I have NR derailleurs with long cage adaptations on two bikes. Both have wide range FWs, certainly not just racing types. They work just fine, or at least well enough that I can shift when I need to without resorting to cursing with Italian words I do not know. They look good, though not as good as Ms. Loren.

As for the bikes themselves, they work just fine and look good.
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Old 01-04-19, 08:52 PM
  #158  
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Just built up another bike from '87, this time with early '80s super record (rear derailleur), triomphe (crankset, shifters, front derailleur) and sunrace (13-28t 7-speed freewheel). Silky smooth. I'm in love.
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Old 01-05-19, 01:02 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
Do you really think it is about the Country of origin or the craftsman that built the Bike?
It's definitely both, both OP is probably seeing higher end Italian bikes as opposed to lower end Japanese bikes. I think they're all pretty good lol
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Old 01-06-19, 05:22 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
So you have two complaints: Nobody listened to Frank Berto at the outset, and Campy was slow to adopt slant parallellogram?
No. My complaint is paying extra for a rear mech that won't drop onto the 13T about half of the time I shift into it.

I don't know when Frank started evaluating derailleurs and other gear for Bicycling! but Campy was out there in the pro racing world since about 1963 (my best guess). It held a place on most racing bicycles for (again my best guess) about 10 years. Did Frank say how bad it was at the outset of his reviews and comments?
It was a little longer than ten years. Frank wasn't right about everything. He promoted Huret Duopar, which had a problem staying aligned in real-world conditions.

There are a lot of reasons why a company might not release new products with the best technology as early as another company. For Campy I don't know what they are but I could imagine a complex set of problems adopting a new set of designs.
It wasn't for lack of trying. Once their hand was forced, Campagnolo tried several non-slant designs, with some degree of success. They even borrowed dual sprung pivots from Simplex. None of them shifted as good as Dura-Ace or Superbe Pro on a bad day.

I don't think "why didn't Campy innovate?" is your real problem, since your rant sounds peeved about something. I don't see how Campy, good or bad, affects you in the least. I still don't see what point you are trying to make. If your message is "Campy stinks," that has been stated many times in many publications and forums. The only practical answer is "a lot of people like it and find it works well, and if you don't like it you shouldn't buy it. You'll end up sad."
Is it that "a lot of people like it and it find it works well" or that a lot of people just believed Campagnolo was better because others told them it was? I can understand the hype from a reliability standpoint. I have an NR derailleur on my desktop right now as I type this. It's strong enough to hammer nails, so there is that bit of versatility.

But a lot of people including consumers have been satisfied riding their Campy-equipped bicycles.
NR works okay (not great) with corn-cob freewheels and 14T minimums. It looks good, it looks old, it has monster reliability and it's Italian. For some that's enough to drop extra coin, and they will do so happily. I just find the extra money expenditure to be somewhat irritating given the marginal shift quality.
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Old 01-06-19, 06:59 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by kunsunoke View Post
Is it that "a lot of people like it and it find it works well" or that a lot of people just believed Campagnolo was better because others told them it was? I can understand the hype from a reliability standpoint. I have an NR derailleur on my desktop right now as I type this. It's strong enough to hammer nails, so there is that bit of versatility.

NR works okay (not great) with corn-cob freewheels and 14T minimums. It looks good, it looks old, it has monster reliability and it's Italian. For some that's enough to drop extra coin, and they will do so happily. I just find the extra money expenditure to be somewhat irritating given the marginal shift quality.
Compared to you folks, I'm a noob on Campy gear but "I ain't got no complaints". I had no preconceived notions about NR RDs when I stumbled upon one on my Raleigh. Cleaned it real well and lubed it then out on the road. I use it with a Suntour Ultra 6 FW and a 9 speed chain. Flawless, precise, quiet, highly repeatable and reliable RD, and FD actually. I've had min 13T and 14T cogs on there. Works flawlessly with both. I'm real happy with mine and, I think, I've done a lot of miles on that bike.

Note: I'm also VERY fussy about RD hanger alignment, DO alignment, limit screw settings, DO slot position, guide wheel to cog spacing, etc. You don't suppose that matters doos it?

My my winter project Moto GR has a '72 NR RD. I'm sure to learn more from this experience by spring.
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Old 01-06-19, 09:03 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by kunsunoke View Post
No. My complaint is paying extra for a rear mech that won't drop onto the 13T about half of the time I shift into it.

It was a little longer than ten years. Frank wasn't right about everything. He promoted Huret Duopar, which had a problem staying aligned in real-world conditions.

It wasn't for lack of trying. Once their hand was forced, Campagnolo tried several non-slant designs, with some degree of success. They even borrowed dual sprung pivots from Simplex. None of them shifted as good as Dura-Ace or Superbe Pro on a bad day.

Is it that "a lot of people like it and it find it works well" or that a lot of people just believed Campagnolo was better because others told them it was? I can understand the hype from a reliability standpoint. I have an NR derailleur on my desktop right now as I type this. It's strong enough to hammer nails, so there is that bit of versatility.

NR works okay (not great) with corn-cob freewheels and 14T minimums. It looks good, it looks old, it has monster reliability and it's Italian. For some that's enough to drop extra coin, and they will do so happily. I just find the extra money expenditure to be somewhat irritating given the marginal shift quality.
@kunsunoke:
Paying extra: actually I've been surprised at how much it will cost me to cobble together a working Shimano 10s setup for my tandem! Even as a Campy fan I would never buy NOS. If the bearings and pivots are good and it is not twisted or cracked, and it has all the screws, it's as good as new for my purposes. I don't own show bikes, I own riders.

Shifting down to 13: My bike with NR and a Regina 13-21 6sp will shift down, but it has been tricky to set up. We can help you sort that out, if you like.

Duopar: I have had a few of them working, and now hwve had one on my Trek for about 15 years. Several important points: 1. If I've moved the bike around the basement a lot, I could have knocked the shift levers and have to check the alignment (feathering) before doing much more. 2. I need to pay attention to rear dropout alignment on that bike. It's been a few years. 3. It is necessary to keep the right friction lever friction screw adjusted on the tight side. There is a happy medium between tight/sticky and loose/smooth/slippy. To maintain requires periodic readjustment. Back in the day this was just something we did. It's good to carry a stubby screwdriver if your levers do not have hand-adjustable clamp screws.

Dura and Superbe: I never owned them, but wisdom from this and other sites is that the lower levels of Shimano and Suntour shift often indistinguishably from the higher levels. YMMV. I find 10 sp and lower Campy setups shift uniformly well, all the way down to 1997 8-speed Mirage triples. You do have to be careful to use the components within their ratings, in terms of say over sizing sprockets or chainrings.

For NR users, I think some of us have maintained our skills at setting up the system with compatible components, and on those bikes have performance expectations that are well-satisfied. They should work with 13's, and on my Masi I have always used it with 13. I have a Record (pre-NR) that is marked "13-33" on the back. I don't believe it is capable of a 33 tooth rear sprocket, but, well, maybe I'm misinterpreting. In any case we can talk about this more, as I said above.

So I think a lot of people who need NR or SR for compatibility (physical compatibility, not style points or Eroica points) find it works well for those bikes. As Berto said with good reasons and tests to prove his conclusions, it is not suitable for indexing systems for the same reasons it needs to be over-shifted. For me if somebody disses NR/SR for not working well in indexing, they are just barking up the wrong tree. If I have to choose between an NR or a Shimano 600 6207 (pre-slant parallelogram), I would always vote for the NR, since I have discarded non-functioning 6207s from several bikes with in range freewheels and old square teeth. I can't understand why people like that model. And they're not even cheap on Ebay! I have one on a UO-8, it's better than an Alvit.

I grew into road bikes when Campy NR migrated into the high-end consumer market. My experience is that Campy was good on racing bikes of the day and on similar bikes today, except perhaps for Simplex setups on PX-10s. When Sun-Tour brought out their first slanted ones, they were cheap, massive and very functional at all cage lengths. No argument with people choosing them.
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Old 01-06-19, 11:10 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I have to say this: I have never, ever had the kind of problems people here complain about with SR or NR rear derailleurs. Never. I maintain/adjust them periodically for optimal performance, and that's what I get. They are limited in absolute precision by design, but they work as advertised: quick and accurate shifting over a range of racing gears, that is to say, maximum of 1 or 2 tooth jumps.

DD
Bring on the Crapagnolo - I salute the lowly Velox. That thing is shining steel bulletproof and well.... it simply works without issue. Comically entertaining riding late season with the fellows on their carbon wonders and I'm feeling strong while on a gaspipe Bottechia loaded with steel components, 5 speed cog, single ring. My day is complete 🏁
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Old 01-06-19, 11:37 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by kunsunoke View Post
NR works okay (not great) with corn-cob freewheels and 14T minimums. It looks good, it looks old, it has monster reliability and it's Italian. For some that's enough to drop extra coin, and they will do so happily. I just find the extra money expenditure to be somewhat irritating given the marginal shift quality.
Obviously this isn't a great pic and one of these days I'll remedy that. But FWIW, in this pic the bike has a Victory crank with 36/48 rings and a 7sp 13-28 FW. The rear derailleur is a stock Nuovo Record and it shifts through all the gears just fine.....though I will admit that the chain is almost too tight for comfort in the big/big combo.

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Old 01-06-19, 07:55 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I have to say this: I have never, ever had the kind of problems people here complain about with SR or NR rear derailleurs. Never. I maintain/adjust them periodically for optimal performance, and that's what I get. They are limited in absolute precision by design, but they work as advertised: quick and accurate shifting over a range of racing gears, that is to say, maximum of 1 or 2 tooth jumps.

DD
Fantastic. My first "real" race bike (keeper for 20 years)has SR and I love it. Really glad to hear that NR is also fine stuff because one day, I will have a keeper 70s NR bike.
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Old 01-07-19, 04:06 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by robertj298 View Post
If you look carefully you can buy a pristine vintage Japanese Miyata or Centurion for for $200-$300 dollars but yet I see these classic Italian bikes selling for thousands of dollars. Are they really that much better or is it a prestige deal having more to do with snob appeal owning a certain brand or something thats more of a collector item?
No, they aren't "that much better" but they are better.
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Old 01-07-19, 09:22 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by TXsailor View Post
I really have no idea who this lady is but as a small town Texas redneck all I can say is I am in love....
We all are, WOW!
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Old 01-08-19, 10:16 AM
  #168  
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It would be interesting to do a blind test of bikes of the same size and geometry but different tubing and components. Although it would take some doing today, early Trek bikes offered a menu of Ishiwata, Reynolds or Columbus tubing and Suntour, Shimano and Campagnolo components. Since they used the same geometry, lugs and dropouts you could put together bikes with the same components and different tubing to see where the "magic" was. I vaguely recall an actual test in the early 80s of the same design in different tubing to try and find the difference.
Getting back to the original question, some of that price difference has to do with the original price and availability. A Raleigh Record is always cheaper than a Raleigh Team Pro, Also some Italian bikes were cheap basic machines and not works of art., I recall mid 70s Atalas being inferior to a contemporary Fujis or Panasonics.
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Old 01-08-19, 10:51 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by SlowJoeCrow View Post
It would be interesting to do a blind test of bikes of the same size and geometry but different tubing and components. Although it would take some doing today, early Trek bikes offered a menu of Ishiwata, Reynolds or Columbus tubing and Suntour, Shimano and Campagnolo components. Since they used the same geometry, lugs and dropouts you could put together bikes with the same components and different tubing to see where the "magic" was. I vaguely recall an actual test in the early 80s of the same design in different tubing to try and find the difference.
Jan Heine compared 4 identical frames with 3 different tube sets - described in his article that claims stiffer frames are not faster. Also, I think Bill Davidson built identical bikes with Tange Prestige and Columbus steel, did a blind test, and both riders preferred the Columbus steel
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Old 01-08-19, 03:25 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by GailT View Post
Jan Heine compared 4 identical frames with 3 different tube sets - described in his article that claims stiffer frames are not faster. Also, I think Bill Davidson built identical bikes with Tange Prestige and Columbus steel, did a blind test, and both riders preferred the Columbus steel
Thanks for finding that.
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Old 01-08-19, 03:38 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by GailT View Post
...Also, I think Bill Davidson built identical bikes with Tange Prestige and Columbus steel, did a blind test, and both riders preferred the Columbus steel
Bruce Gordon I believe:
Tubing Article ? Nothing is better than a bike that fits

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Old 01-08-19, 03:49 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
Yes, that's it - thanks. Interesting that they find (contrary to Jan) that more flex in the thinner diameter Tange did not help with climbing, but I suppose a lot of this subjective or specific to a particular bike.
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Old 01-08-19, 11:36 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by RiceAWay View Post
No, they aren't "that much better" but they are better.
Nope. Just different.
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Old 01-08-19, 11:41 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...if there is a Japanese equivalent of Sophia Loren, I am unaware of her.
No Italian equivalent, either.
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Old 01-09-19, 11:44 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
No Italian equivalent, either.
There was Sophia's arch rival Gina Lollobrigida.

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